ONE AND THE SAME I have a Question? If Jesus and God are the same, why doesnt Christ know of the time spoke of in mark 13:32-33? [And also,] How do we stand in front of both God and Jesus on judgment day if they are the same? Thank You Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxx Answer: Hello. Excellent question, and thank you for bringing it here for our study. You may also note that I changed your question when I made it the heading of this Q&A. The reason that I did that shall become evident as we move through this study. You asked Why doesnt..., which I changed to Why didnt.... There is a difference; one being present tense (doesnt), the other being past tense (didnt). In other words, Jesus didnt know then, but He does know now. More on that later. You refer to: Mark 13:24-33 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. KJV The question is: if Jesus was God in the flesh, and the Father knows the time but the Son doesnt, then how could the Son be the same as the Father? Right, isnt that your question? The Son isnt the same as the Father, as verse 32 above exemplifies. Both are God. The Son is born of flesh, the Father is Spirit: John 4:24 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. KJV Let me explain, and please bear with me, this is difficult to put into words that dont seemingly contradict (though they do not at all contradict). God came down to Earth, was clothed with flesh (in Marys womb), and was and is known to us as Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV God Himself, the Father, is in Heaven―He is God. Jesus was man, flesh. Jesus was God, made a little lower than the angels (so-that/because-that He could die): Hebrews 2:9 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. KJV What that means is that Jesus was born of flesh, which is lower than an angel. Angels are greater than flesh men, as the Scripture declares: 2 Peter 2:11 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. KJV Angels also cannot die (except if God casts them into the Lake of Fire). So, being that Jesus was flesh, liable to die, and angels were not flesh and could not die―the angels were higher than Jesus. In other words, when God is in the flesh, He is Jesus, when God is in Heaven He is God. God in Heaven is greater than the angels, for He created them; but when God is in the flesh, as He was when He was Jesus Christ, the angels are higher than Him. Please understand that this does not mean that the angels would dare treat God (Jesus) less; for, even the evil angels (evil spirits) dared not even blaspheme Jesus Christ, though the Jews did (Mt 10:25). Nor did the evil angels (evil spirits) dare try to kill Jesus, as the Jews did (Jn 8:37, etc. etc. etc.) I know that the Holy Trinity (Triune Godhead by another name) is very difficult for us to understand because we think flesh and not spiritual. We have trouble fully grasping how Jesus could talk to God in Heaven while Jesus was still on the Earth. What many of us fail to understand is that God is omnipresent, He can be everywhere at once. We cannot be in more than one place at one time―so, we cannot understand the nature of God based upon the nature of man, that is to say, based upon our nature. Please allow me an analogy, and it may not be the best one that could have been used, but it gets the point across: our beloved pet Collie could never understand the causal nature (how it happened) and the relationship of us men to our sons, because that concept is way past the understanding of the dog. In other words, we (humans) are so much more intelligent and surpassing in wisdom and understanding than our pet dogs. Well, so it is with Gods wisdom and understanding over ours. But a full understanding of the nature of God and of the Holy Trinity (Triune Godhead) is not necessary for salvation. In other words, God doesnt expect us to fully understand it. It is not required, it is not a salvation issue, as is, say, belief upon Jesus Christ a salvation issue. Nevertheless, it can be understood. We have a Bible study on this site that goes into great depth on this subject, and many have written in and told me that it was most helpful; perhaps you could glean from it. It is at: The Holy Spirit & The Holy Trinity. Why did God come in the flesh as Jesus Christ? This was done so that God could die for the sins of Gods children, so that he could offer the only perfect sacrifice and forgiveness for sin. But God Himself cannot die. So, God fashioned a body (Jesus) within Mother Mary and He entered that body with His Spirit. Thus, God could die for the sins of His children: Luke 1:34-35 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. KJV So, Jesus Christ was called the Son of God because that is what God determined that He be called. But Jesus was not a son as we are sons to our fathers; for, Jesus was born quite differently than we were. Jesus was God in the flesh; hence His name Emmanuel = God with us (Mt 1:23). But, with us this is not so; with us, we are men born of the sperm of our fathers―quite different than Jesus, there was no sperm involved with Jesus incarnation, or better stated, Gods incarnation as Jesus Christ; for, as Mary stated, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (Luke 1:34b). When our fathers sired us, they were different entities than we, or better stated, we are separate souls that they; however, when God begat Jesus, He (God) became flesh (Jesus). Observe: John 1:1-3 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. KJV Continuing down to verse 14: John 1:14-15 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. KJV Continuing down to verse 29: John 1:29-30 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. KJV The direct answer to your question is that while Jesus was in the flesh He did not have access to the full mind of God. He was hindered by being saddled with the flesh body and mind. But when Jesus ascended, He was no longer in the flesh and knew everything, for He was God. So, while at the time of that statement But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but [only] the Father. (Mk 13:32) Jesus didnt know; but, when Jesus ascended after the crucifixion, He did know (but wasnt going to tell us anyway). A careful read of the Scripture to which you are referring to (supplied again below) will reveal the use of several terms. Now, understand that the terms Father and Son (for God and Jesus) are unique to our flesh world. They have no necessity or place in Heaven. Mark 13:32 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. The term Father means God in Heaven in relation to God in the flesh (as Jesus); the term Son refers to God in the flesh in relation to God in Heaven (as the Lord God); You will notice that these terms refer specifically to our flesh world. In Heaven, Jesus is simply God, He is not the Son. This is seen in several places in the book of Revelation, where Jesus is in Heaven; one place being: Revelation 1:5-8 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. KJV Bear in mind that key phrase I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, and compared with: Revelation 21:1-7 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. KJV So, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending is God, and Jesus used it of Himself in His address in Rev 1:8 above. Jesus also nails home the point that He is God in Rev 1:17-18, where He connects the I am the first and the last with I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore: Revelation 1:17-18 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. KJV Moving on... In Heaven (specifically the eternity), God is not the Father, but simply God, because there is no Son in Heaven. That is not to say that God the Father isnt in Heaven in relation to US, because we know that He is, Jesus told us so: After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Mat 6:9). And it is not to say that Jesus isnt in Heaven, because He is (Rev 1:8, 1:17-18, etc.), but that He is not Jesus the Son there, but rather He is God. The Bible uses descriptions that we can understand; and we can understand Jesus sitting down at the right hand of His Father in Heaven, but this is not how it shall be after the great Judgement Day of Rev 20:11-15. After the Judgement Day and the New Heaven and New Earth (Rev 21) are ushered in, God is all-in-all, and the Son is no longer separated; for, I might add, we are ourselves no longer flesh either: 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christs at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then [at that (future) time; i.e., not yet] shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV Hebrews 1 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers [the ancients] by the prophets [Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. As recorded in the Old Testament], 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [as recorded in the Gospels], whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who [Jesus] being the brightness of his [Gods] glory, and the express image of his [Gods] person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 [Jesus] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [Now the angels are going to be being compared to Jesus, Jesus being shown as the superior; God even calling Jesus God in verse 8] 5 For unto which of the angels said he [God] at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? [Ps 2:7] And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son [2 Chron. 17:11-14]? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten [Jesus] into the world, he [God] saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [Ps 97:7 where gods is elohiym (Heb # 430); i.e., angels]. 7 And of the angels he [God] saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire [Ps 104:4]. 8 But unto the Son [Jesus] he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows [Ps 45:6-7]. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail [Ps 102:25-27]. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine [Jesuss] enemies thy footstool [Ps 110:1]? 14 Are they [the angels] not all ministering [servile] spirits, sent forth to minister [serve] for them who shall be heirs of salvation? KJV But what I am saying is that IN RELATION TO the Son, God the Father is not the Father in Heaven when we arent in this flesh Earth age, when there isnt a flesh world for Him (God) to be flesh in (as Jesus Christ). Understand that I am speaking of the terms in our Bible, and I am speaking of Earth ages (for the Three Earth Ages, see our: When Was The Beginning?). There is no term Father where there is no term Son at the same time. But to us on the earth, God is always the Father in Heaven. In the eternal Heaven age to come (Rev 21-forward) the Son is the Father, they are one. There are only two (and please allow me latitude with that term) in this (second) Earth Age, where God needs be on the Earth as Jesus. In the third Earth age (commonly referred to by Christians as going to Heaven), and, also in the first Earth age, the one before our present age (the world that then was (2 Pet 3:6), there is no Son, for the Father is One, all in all (1 Cor 15:28). Once again, a complete understanding that there were to be three Earth ages is necessary to understand the above paragraph, and i dare say our general subject here. For the Three Earth Ages, see our: When Was The Beginning?). And please do not confuse this with anything taught by the various false traditions on this planet (Mormons, etc.) as they hold to some of this truth, but corrupt it in other places. How can a false religion yet have some truth in it? Even a broken watch is correct twice in a day. Now, further complicating matters of understanding the nature of God is the third part of the Trinity (the Godhead), that being the Holy Spirit. When He (God) is on the Earth, not as the Son, He is on the Earth as the Holy Spirit. When God came to the Earth as the Messiah, He was Jesus Christ. Then Jesus left this earth and God returned as the Holy Spirit which parts-wise dwells within Christians to this day; hence, God is here on this Earth today, but He is also at the same time in Heaven. I hasten to add, that because of the fact that various heretical denominations have corrupted even this: that while God does dwell within the Christian, the Christian is not in any way God (I speak of the spiritually sick teachings that are swallowed down by the pastor Lance Knight, Big Sam, Buzzy, etc., devotees, the spiritualist movements [which go by many diverse names and doctrines {the Tabernacle teachings, Manchild teachings, etc.}], and the Manifest Sons of God movements―all are an abominable blasphemy of God, and all who hold with these movements and denominations have one foot in Hell already, if theyre not careful! Im not judging them, mind you; for, God is the judge; Im just comparing what they teach, say, and believe, to what the Scriptures state about those who teach, say, and believe as they do (see our: The Unforgivable Sin). Jesus explains this difficult-for-humans-to-understand concept (Trinity/Godhead): John 14:6-15 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter [the Holy Spirit], that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth [the Holy Spirit]; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I [Jesus] will not leave you comfortless: I [the Holy Spirit] will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him [through the Holy Spirit]. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fathers which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. KJV [Repeating verse 18 above to compare to this last verse, verse 26: verse 18, I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.] So, God shall send the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ (vs. 26); and, speaking of the coming of this Holy Spirit, Jesus says I will come to you. (vs. 18). How can this be? It can be because: 1 John 5:5-7 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit that beareth witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV You asked: How do we stand in front of both God and Jesus on judgement day if they are the same? That answers your question about whether or not Jesus was God. For we do not stand before two on Judgement Day, only one. However, the Old Testament says that God shall judge us, and the New Testament says that Jesus shall Judge us; ergo, Jesus and God are one in the same, as the Scripture declares that they are one: Genesis 18:22-26 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. KJV Ecclesiastes 3:17 17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. KJV Psalms 98:9 9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. KJV Ecclesiastes 12:12-14 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. KJV John 5:22 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: KJV 2 Corinthians 5:8-10 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. KJV Revelation 20:11-12 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. KJV Jesus is Lord and God: John 20:26-31 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. KJV John 10:24-33 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand [i.e., its the same hand!]. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. KJV The Jews fully understood that Jesus was referring to Himself as God, they just didnt believe it; the Christians of today fully believe it, but do not understand it. And that is well (for the Christians), because their believing that which they cannot fully understand is just another evidence of God (the Holy Spirit) being in them, showing them, guiding them, teaching them, causing them to believe: Matthew 16:13-17 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. KJV Peace to you in Christ Jesus.
Posted on: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 01:35:42 +0000
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