Ok... thank you Lee for asking for the breeding standard convo. I still have our convo or at least most of it. I have blocked Lisa so she wont be able to usurp it again. So here it is again. And I apologize for not having all of it and my part in it being usurped. It was ok for a while but then it just took over to the point of being distracting. I removed those comments most related to the distracting comments. Jann Bach Are they talking about revising it again? June 19 at 5:16pm · Like Marcha Garn No, ATMA is not talking about changing the breed standard. I wanted to start a dialogue about the standard because several people are concerned about the type of dogs that are being introduced into the gene pool. I am looking for a solution to discourage this and thought the breed standard would be a place to start. Want to discourage this obsession with head and bone and refocus it on the ability to do the job and health. This group is about preserving the TM that could do the work so I thought this might be a place to start the conversation. If we get enough involved, who knows what the possibilities might be? June 20 at 5:08pm · Like · 1 Marcha Garn Head, bone hair is what I should have said. Some breeders are bringing those dogs in and putting them in the gene pool.... particularly in Europe where they can make their way here. Try undoing that once it is done. June 20 at 5:09pm · Like · 1 Lyn Peel Marcha why do you want to focus the standard on the ability to do the job? Frankly these dogs are now appearing as pets in peoples backyards ... what job do they need to do? The health I agree with ... which TM do you want to preserve? Given they are a landrace and change according to whichever location you find them in. The West is most familiar with the Nepalese version of the TM because thats the first TM type which found its way into the west 35 years ago. But thats not the only type or variation. Frankly I think we need to think much more widely - do away with those who believe in straight jacketing the breed into a standard - standards do more harm than good anyway - and accept what we find which is obviously close to the main theme of the dog. June 20 at 8:51pm · Like Lyn Peel Besides if some people prefer head, bone and hair why should they change their preferences to suit another group? There is room for all variations. No one has the right to say the dog should look like this or like that - the dog is what it is. Take a look at the Mongolian Banhar for example? Now that is a fine example of a TM. If people havent familiarised themselves with the quality Chinese or Tibetan dogs but are basing their opinions on the rubbish seen in over emphasised or photo shopped photos that is their problem. There are quality dogs in China. This is where the dogs originate from. To try and westernise dogs into some western view of what they should be in the western eye is frankly ludicrous. Do more research to find those dogs worthwhile ... dont try to reduce the breed into a version of what one or two people think they should be. For they can never be that. I like the smaller dogs and the larger dogs. The quality in them stands out and speaks for itself. If people only like one dog because it represents something to them then they are limiting themselves. They all have something desirable and interesting - most of all their presence and personality. June 20 at 8:57pm · Like Kristina Sherling Lyn Peel, focusing on keeping the dogs natural abilities versus focusing on COSMETICS is what ruins a breed in the first place. Part of that natural ability is structure and conformation which relates directly to health as well. The better conformed, the better the body functions. the better the body functions the less likely that structure collapses from inharmonious components working against one another. June 21 at 11:20am · Edited · Like Lyn Peel yes all that is true but focusing solely on a dogs ability to do work it no longer does seem anachronistic to me ... of course the dog has to be able to walk and have 4 legs etc etc and be healthy ... but ... June 22 at 1:26am · Like Marcha Garn Lyn Peel I revised this standard to promote some conversation around how we can protect the breed against the massive overdone dogs that are making their way into the gene pool. I think changing the breed standard to put more emphasis on movement and working ability and put a little less focus on head, tail and bone mass. I recently asked someone who has a couple of these overdone specimens to see videos of the dogs running. She said they cant run. I am still hoping to promote conversation. I have made some changes to the original which I am posting now.. June 22 at 7:18am · Like Marcha Garn This is what I am concerned about Lyn Peel. I want the breed standard to be broader than it is, but do exclude the characteristic of this type of dog which is already making its way into the gene pool The standard I revised is the current AKC standard which has disqualified coat colors and limited markings that are common in the breed. Although the head and tail are distinguishing features of the breed... the language used in the current standard promotes the breed becoming a head breed by drawing excessive attention to it with terms like essential and hallmark while saying very little about the gait and athletic ability and does not place any importance on it. It also states the dog is to have moderate rear angulation. This may be functional for the dog that was tied and had to stand its ground, but it leaves out the dog that was not used in this way and in my opinion is not a trait that promotes health and comfort. But I keep learning so if I am off base about the angulation I would like input. Marcha Garns photo. June 22 at 7:32am · Edited · Like Lyn Peel the AKC standard is, as the President of ATMA states, owned by her ... its a false standard and one Id never ever look at precisely because of the nonsense about coat colours and so on ... its an excellent example of how man decides in his/her arrogance to control what the dog should be .. and thereby changes it altogether from its original state June 22 at 8:12am · Like · 1 Lyn Peel why not look at the FCI standard? can you email privately more information about the dog in the photo making its way into the gene pool? it doesnt appear to have any eyes it can see through ... this is a terrible specimen ... what pedigree does it have? which kennel club? we should make representations rather to kennel clubs which give these dogs their pedigrees June 22 at 8:14am · Like Marcha Garn Yes. However, there will be breed standards to contend with. June 22 at 8:14am · Like Lyn Peel however I still think there are many types which are acceptable and not just one which a number of people prefer ... this dog originates from asia, not the west ... June 22 at 8:14am · Like Lyn Peel so I go back to my original argument - we should be open to accepting different types June 22 at 8:15am · Like Marcha Garn I wholeheartedly agree. June 22 at 8:15am · Like Marcha Garn Except I do not accept the monsters that cant move that are being called TMS. June 22 at 8:18am · Like · 1 Lyn Peel to me some dogs are absolutely not TMs ... if any dog cant move they shouldnt have a pedigree ... it goes back to the kennel club which gave the pedigree ... if a dog is more like a Newfy or something else .. clearly its not TM either ... cant people learn enough to steer away from these profoundly mixed breeds which are NOT TM? If they cant you already have a very big lost cause June 22 at 8:19am · Unlike · 2 Marcha Garn Look at some of the kennels in Europe bringing in dogs that look like the above. While the FCI is helping in some respects get in dogs that are TMs I think they are getting in dogs that are not TM June 22 at 8:21am · Like · 1 Kristina Sherling Marcha, moderate angulation is just that, moderate. A dog with too straight angulation, even if tied is unable to ambulate effortlessly. The breed standard does NOT call for slight (which is Chow like) or marked angulation (such as hunting or coursing breeds), it calls for moderate. June 22 at 11:11am · Like Marcha Garn I see. Thanks I am still trying to learn... but I see dogs with more than moderate and I am wondering if the standard is affecting that. I look at a snow leopard and think that a TM should have the same abilities if they were to be able to defend against this type animal. Is this moderate or well angulated. Marcha Garns photo. June 22 at 11:21am · Like Jann Bach I dont think you can compare dog and cat conformation. They are made totally differently. A dog has no where near the flexibility of a cat, so the angles and structure is going to be very different. June 22 at 11:23am · Like Marcha Garn Saluki Marcha Garns photo. June 22 at 11:24am · Like Kristina Sherling Lyn, true, the dogs for the most part in western world, no longer *fully* function in the same exact manner in Tibet though my China contact who visited many shepherding areas sent lots of pics of the dogs with the yak and goat herds. Several dogs per herd/flock amongst vast areas. The Mongolians use their Bangkhar is very similar fashion in the plains. I know there are folks here in the USA whose Tibetan Mastiffs are flock/herd guardians, poultry to hoofed animals. My boy Mugz was one of the best and yes, his lovely moderate angulation allowed him to travel tirelessly through acres of pastures with me (on my quad), checking on the calves/kids/poultry that free ranged. He did his fair share of chasing off unwanteds from the pastures and he employed the very interesting and age old habit I noticed from my first years of involvement, watching the skies. He would see birds of prey and was off his deck and walking around his flocks of poultry, even bunching them June 22 at 11:24am · Unlike · 3 Marcha Garn UKC TM drawing Marcha Garns photo. June 22 at 11:25am · Like Marcha Garn I think I see the difference if these are good examples of what you are trying to tell me June 22 at 11:26am · Like Marcha Garn Jann, I think that the TM has been termed as very cat like. The difference i see is in the angle of the hocks, which I think, but I am still learning, assists with jumping and being able to manuever. June 22 at 11:28am · Like Kristina Sherling Less than moderate angulation (and each breed standard for breeds uses moderate in their own way which is very confusing in many instances), will now allow for endurance. Over angulation if the front doesnt match the rear in angulation, will also tire an animal out. June 22 at 11:28am · Like Marcha Garn Looking at rear angulation. June 22 at 11:29am · Like Kristina Sherling here is moderate angulation, rear and front matching in angles Kristina Sherlings photo. June 22 at 11:29am · Like Kristina Sherling Well defined hock that must be broad, strong; well muscled upper and second thighs which enable to dog to not only coil when defending but also in long days of moving from pasture to pasture, those joints do not give out from being too straight such as the pic here. Kristina Sherlings photo. June 22 at 11:30am · Like Marcha Garn Seeing alot of this. June 22 at 11:31am · Like Kristina Sherling which, the first or second pic? June 22 at 11:31am · Like Kristina Sherling I am not seeing enough of the first pic and too much of the second pic. Here is a very tall hock, no breadth to joint, no muscling in upper or second thigh, no angulation…BTW, this dog is long gone so no problem offending anyone Kristina Sherlings photo. June 22 at 11:32am · Like Marcha Garn Second. Makes the dog look really stiff in the rear when they are gaiting June 22 at 11:33am · Like Marcha Garn The third I have no problem seeing it is a problem. LOL!! June 22 at 11:33am · Like Kristina Sherling Marcha, exactly. It is a Chow like gait that demands a straight stifle to be correct June 22 at 11:34am · Like Kristina Sherling but that b/w pic you speak of is NOT a Chow rear, its a TM rear June 22 at 11:34am · Like Marcha Garn seeing alot of that... or close to it. June 22 at 11:35am · Like Jann Bach So you want a TM built like a Saluki? You are right, the standard needs a lot of work June 22 at 2:52pm · Like Marcha Garn No Jann, I was trying to figure out moderate angulation. Saluki is not moderate. June 22 at 6:11pm · Like Kristina Sherling Boxers, Rotts, Westies, German Shepherds, Weimeraner and many others are *well angulated* versus moderate. June 22 at 6:19pm · Unlike · 1 Kristina Sherling Sighthound *moderate angulation* is going to be different on sighthounds than on working or herding breeds. June 22 at 6:23pm · Unlike · 1 Jann Bach Was just joking Marcha. June 22 at 6:40pm · Unlike · 1 Marcha Garn Screaming. Marcha Garns photo. June 22 at 7:14pm · Like Kristina Sherling Yup, Id scream too. also, hard to tell if PS is involved but here is an example of the extremes NOT PHOTOSHOPPED and perfectly photographed by one of our best, Sanna Sander. Kristina Sherlings photo. June 22 at 7:20pm · Like Kristina Sherling Upon closer inspection (enlarging) the pic you provided above Marcha, it is PSd. June 22 at 7:21pm · Like Marcha Garn I see, but why would anyone want this... I see this type of dog for meat and fur trade... more like livestock... it sounds awful, but it has been done in some cultures. June 22 at 7:22pm · Like Marcha Garn Poor baby. June 22 at 7:23pm · Like Lyn Peel what about the very straight stifles posted in the pics above? the pics posted about hocks? June 22 at 7:35pm · Like Lyn Peel Marcha I think you need to go to China to see what is truly there before you start deciding what you want to remove or prevent from coming in to the western gene pools ... taste is arbitrary .. if its present and it truly is a TM and not a dog which has been cobbled together from other breeds ... no one has the right to say it doesnt belong in the gene pool. The other thing is that there are some very fine dogs in China - we have seen mostly photo shopped crap ... basing your remarks on the latter does no one any justice. June 22 at 7:36pm · Like Lyn Peel Kristi my remark on dogs which now live in peoples backyards refers really to some of the finer distinctions being made about the breed eg how loose mouths cannot be present because they wouldnt have worked or existed in the snow [and frozen up] ... and other considerations like that. The problem with my argument and standards is that my argument has to be based on something ... and that something has to be a standard of some sort ... so really I am somewhat circular in my remarks. However I do think the very first UK standard has reflected the breed better than almost any other one other than the TMCA standard .. the Byland standard of 1904 June 22 at 7:39pm · Edited · Like Lyn Peel have you seen this standard? zt.tibet.cn/tibetzt-en/dog/02/01.htm Tibetan Mastiff zt.tibet.cn GENERAL APPEARANCE Powerful, heavy, well built, with good bone. Impressive; of s... See More June 22 at 7:44pm · Like Lyn Peel here is a website with a very interesting and well researched preamble on the Tibetan Mastiff ... I dont know whose it is but am sharing it here tsangkhyi.lapunk.hu/?modul=oldal&tartalom=1092176 THE TIBETAN MASTIFFS - tsangkhyi.lapunk.hu tsangkhyi.lapunk.hu Jomo Khi-Chi Bisurman, Shiva Hongcha a tibeti masztiffok, fajtaleírás, fajtatört... See More June 22 at 7:47pm · Like Lyn Peel this Wiki excerpt has some mistakes in it but also has food for thought : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Mastiff Tibetan Mastiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org The Tibetan Mastiff (Wylie: dogs khyi;[2] Lhasa dialect IPA: [tʰòcʰi]) is an an... See More June 22 at 7:50pm · Like Lyn Peel the Byland standard uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk/bylandt.html Chortens Tibetan Mastiffs - Breed Standards uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk The Bylandt Standard June 22 at 7:53pm · Edited · Like Lyn Peel Nepal Standard 1976 uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk/nepalstd.html Chortens Tibetan Mastiffs - Breed Standards uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk The Nepal Standard for the TM June 22 at 7:55pm · Like Lyn Peel and here is a Tibetan Breeds standard for the TM, undated uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk/tbastd.html Chortens Tibetan Mastiffs - Breed Standards uktibetanmastiffs.co.uk The 1930s Tibetan Breeds Association Standard for the Tibetan Mastiff June 22 at 7:56pm · Like Marcha Garn Lyn not talking about Chinese dogs in general. There are some very nice dogs in China that I wish we could get here. I am talking about dogs that you cant see their eyes.. they cant run and have very few characteristics of a TM... yet they are being identified as a TM. June 22 at 9:02pm · Like Marcha Garn The straight stifles and hocks you mentioned were being used as a teaching tool for me... not as an ideal example of the breed. June 22 at 9:06pm · Like Lyn Peel I posted some examples of what the breed was thought to be in earlier times above for consideration; I see NO point in discussing dogs which are not TMs ... if you want to hold someone responsible for registering a dog as a TM then I have suggested we begin to force kennel clubs to be responsible for registration of the rubbish. Yes this will take a lot of time before we see sufficient steps being made ... if a dog doesnt have registration it cant be held out to be TM when its not. This applies to kennel clubs which accept the mongrels for registration too ... they dont have to accept them ... As far as where the dogs whose eyes you cant see and the chow coats and the ones that cant walk - to my knowledge 99% of this sort of dog originates in China. Im fed up of reading people whine about the horrible dogs in China - thank heavens you know there are quality dogs there. I see no point in discussing dogs which are hybrids either. If you want to see them stopped from coming into the breeding pool I suggest, once again, we start with the kennel clubs and enforcement of a common recognition of what is to be bred from. Yesterday at 12:00am · Like · 1 Marcha Garn Thus the discussion of breed standards as a way to discourage breeders from even wanting to breed this type. Most of them show dogs. Yesterday at 6:10am · Like Marcha Garn Kennel clubs typically rely on the parent club, who writes the breed standard. Not sure if our discussions will have an influence, but now we have global forums, we have the opportunity to share ideas with the right people. Yesterday at 6:11am · Like Lyn Peel I think some of the earlier standards [excluding Nepal Kennel Club] were better than todays standards ... they had a better image of the dog. Today we need to have both accountability and enforceability. Without either of those trying to do ANYTHING at all is a waste of time. The only way to have both of these is through making our kennel clubs - whether affiliated with a parent club or not - why not make the parent clubs responsible anyway ... for registration of each dog. If a dog doesnt meet an appropriate standard and is lame, cant walk, cant see, has short legs and a chow body on another breeds head - ultimately the registering authority is the one responsible for allowing that dog into the gene pool. 20 hours ago · Like Lyn Peel The Swiss Club about 20 years ago refused to register or acknowledge the pedigrees of certain dogs ... including the Soechavati V litter. Now that was prescient. It refused registration of dogs well known with epilepsy disease too. Why dont we make our parent clubs or kennel clubs do the same thing? Why are we paying costs to them? So they can get money from us with doing very little for the actual breed itself? Thats outrageous. lol! 20 hours ago · Like Judy Arnold Lyn Peel If you have documentation of your previous comment, please provide it here. Your information is incorrect. 19 hours ago · Edited · Like Lyn Peel Judy the whole reasoning was up on the Swiss website for everyone to see ... if it is no longer there thats a different issue altogether. I read it for myself probably about 5 years ago. I will see if I can get into the website it was on ... I think it may have been via the German Club ... 15 hours ago · Like Lyn Peel I used to be able to access it [and everyone else too] through the very first database done by a couple of German women ... it was up for several years and I cant find it on google. Anyone else remember it? It was very outspoken about mentioning certain dogs with epilepsy and certain dogs it refused to recognise pedigrees of. 15 hours ago · Like Josette Pilat where is Lyn Peel ????? 11 hrs · Like · 2 Kristina Sherling PLEASE REMEMBER!!! Unless diagnosed as epilepsy, they are SEIZURES which can be caused by MANY THINGS. That website as several others with a database call it epi/epilepsy WITHOUT full knowledge which usually requires review of the dogs medical history which includes reactions to vacs, exposures to chemicals, thyroid, physical accidents and necropsy of the brain to eliminate all other possibilities. STOP calling it something it is not. Yes, epilepsy can be inherited and can be genetic BUT until all resources are exhausted to DETERMINE CAUSE, we cannot call it epi. 7 hrs · Unlike · 2 Kristina Sherling Hansl, you are ASSUMING prognosis WITHOUT diagnosis! You are saying guilty without evidence. 7 hrs · Unlike · 1 Kristina Sherling Hansl, if they did all of what I mention, and that was their conclusion? Then YES, it can be called epilepsy. Sadly, many veterinarians are NOT skilled at necropsy (usually a specialist, lab or university do those). But if a dog comes in with seizures, most vets CALL IT EPILEPSY. YOU need to do a bit more research Hansl. 6 hrs · Unlike · 2 Judy Steffel Different vets - even specialists - use the word epilepsy to mean different things. Vets in different countries also use the word differently. I dont use the word in the Health Notes section of a dogs record unless the word has been included in a vets report. I *always* insert the word seizure when seizures are reported because seizures are seizures, no matter what causes them. What Hansl is pointing out is the apparent tendencies of dogs in some lines to have seizures and/or to produce offspring with seizures. Ive noticed the same thing in my research: The same ancestors frequently appear in the pedigrees of affected dogs. That may mean that there is an epilepsy gene in the breed or that dogs in some lines have a heritable lowered seizure threshold. Or there may be a specific heritable disease that produces seizures as one of its symptoms (like Battens Disease in Tibetan Terriers). Or some combination thereof. Whichever it eventually turns out to be, it should be of concern to everyone in the breed. 6 hrs · Unlike · 2 Marcha Garn I am under the impression that this reporting happened over 20 years ago. Am I correct? 5 hrs · Like Marcha Garn I would like to hear about reports in the last ten years. 5 hrs · Like Kristina Sherling Judy Steffel, I dont have a problem with notations that *seizures* occur within certain lines which would lead one to believe it is an inheritable epilepsy. But again, it can be idiopathic or acquired. Focal motor seizures indicate a lesion in the brain. An abnormal neurological exam or EEG during a period when there have been no recent seizures also indicates a lesion in the brain. These findings eliminate the diagnosis of epilepsy. Further diagnostic tests include a spinal tap with cerebrospinal fluid analysis, skull X-rays, and a CT scan or MRI. 5 hrs · Like · 2 Marcha Garn I also have to say that I am finding out people say the nastiest things and unless a vet report is filed with the report of any disease, it is in question. Recently a person reported a genetic disease in a dog, but refuses to supply vet veritfication to the one of the dogs offspring owners. In the meantime it is posted in a pedigee data base. 5 hrs · Edited · Like Kristina Sherling Primary epilepsy: also known as idiopathic, genetic, inherited, or true epilepsy. There are no positive diagnostic findings that will substantiate the diagnosis. It is a case of ruling out every other possibility. The first seizure in a dog with primary epilepsy usually occurs between the ages of 6 months and 5 years. (Oliver, Seizures). However, a diagnosis of primary epilepsy is not proof of a genetic defect; only careful breeding studies could prove that. The breed, the age, and the history may suggest a genetic basis for primary epilepsy if there is a familial history of seizures. Secondary epilepsy refers to seizures for which a cause can be determined, and there are many. In dogs less than one year of age, the most commonly-found causes of seizures can be broken down into the following classes: degenerative (storage diseases); developmental (hydrocephalus); toxic (lead, arsenic, organophosphates, chlorinated hydrocarbons, strychnine, tetanus); infectious (distemper, encephalitis, and others); metabolic (such as transient hypoglycemia, enzyme deficiency, liver or kidney failure); nutritional (thiamine, parasitism); and traumatic (acute injury). In dogs 1-3 years of age, a genetic factor is most highly suspected. In dogs 4 years of age and older, seizures are commonly found in the metabolic (hypoglycemia, cardiovascular arrhythmia, hypocalcemia, cirrhosis) and neoplastic (brain tumor) classes. (Oliver, Seizure). Dr. Jean Dodds has mentioned that seizures are also associated with hypothyroidism, which is a familial (inherited) autoimmune disease of purebred dogs. 5 hrs · Unlike · 2 Kristina Sherling Marcha, just like nasty rumors from people who have their heads where the sun dont shine…..it is a CONSTANT BATTLE so providing proof is how to SHUT THEIR LYING MOUTHS. 5 hrs · Unlike · 1 Lisa Lambrecht Wow. This is all quite interesting, especially considering recent events with a TM we had. First seizure happened at 1 yr 4 months, just 1 and he returned to normal. We were told by the breeder not to worry as the sire had a seizure(s) over a yr ago and nothing anymore. He was fine til almost 2 months later where he began cluster seizures. 5 hrs · Like Marcha Garn Kristina Sherling.. yes. We are in the information age.... but we are also in the misinformation age. Everyone needs to check important info from a variety of sources or make sure they have verification from the correct source. 5 hrs · Like Marcha Garn I do not think Kristina Sherling is attempting to twist anything. If you have the vet records for the dogs you mentioned, then I would like to see them shared. Otherwise, Kristi is pointing our there are many reasons for seizures. Judy is pointing out that there have been enough documented that we need to keep an eye on them. I agree with both. And I am pointing out that people are nasty and they make accusations without fact and tell lies to hurt. 4 hrs · Like · 1 Kristina Sherling Marcha, I am perfectly aware about *mis-information* and use only medical published internet information. Not stuff from the ethers. 4 hrs · Like Kristina Sherling Hansl, twisting things? where? I have provided information directly from a respected veterinary medical page on the internet…. 3 hrs · Like Glenda Nunnally Wrong on any changes to the breed standard. Martha told judges at Eukanuba this past December that she will change the breed standard again and she will disqualify all light gold dogs. For anyone that was not around the last go around, you are in for a rude awaking if you think you are going to have an impact on what Martha decides. 3 hrs · Like Marcha Garn Wow Glenda Nunnally. Really? She told them SHE would change the breed standard? Is she ATMA? Oh sorry, stupid question. Just threw this out here for discussion on a possible way to help keep the monsters out of our gene pool. 3 hrs · Like Glenda Nunnally It will never happen. You dont know the power of Martha and no one tried to get into ATMA to fight this. You are wasting your time. 2 hrs · Unlike · 1 Marcha Garn Please... if you are a member of ATMA, please consider leaving the club. There are so many things that the national breed club could be doing to help with the health and preservation of the breed that they are not doing. If one person truly runs this club it is an unhealthy organization. No organization can be effective only following one persons agenda. I am told there is good that Martha has done and I am sure it is true, but a true leader does not dictate and a true leader includes all. Personal experience has shown me this is not true at ATMA. Sorry to all my friends who are ATMA members. This is not about you personally. 2 hrs · Like · 1 Jann Bach Glenda, many of us tried to get into ATMA to fight this. We were denied membership. What more would you have us do? 2 hrs · Like Lyn Peel where do you suggest people move to? 2 hrs · Like Marcha Garn Glenda, I reacted emotionally. Can you share how you came about this information that Martha told judges she was going to disqualify all light gold dogs? 2 hrs · Like Glenda Nunnally Directly from a TM owner that had a light gold TM in competition. Judges that attended the seminar Martha was teaching told the TM owner. She also told the judges there was a TM present at Eukanuba that should be disqualified. The judges told the owner of the light gold dog right after the seminar. You do not have the membership in ATMA to stop her. 2 hrs · Like Marcha Garn Thank you for sharing that. It helps with supporting that it happened. 2 hrs · Like Jann Bach How could we stop her Glenda? We have written to AKC and they completely ignore us. What do you suggest? 2 hrs · Like Glenda Nunnally Jann I know you, Susie, and Dan all tried. Where was everyone else? o one has tried since then. 2 hrs · Like Marcha Garn A whole group of people tried to stop it. They are tired now. 2 hrs · Like · 1 Jann Bach Unfortunately they know they will just be beating their heads against a wall. When Martha can stop a legal membership vote at the meeting because she doesnt want it to happen, what possible hope is there? Glenda Nunnally Jann, get ride of ATMAs dictator. Hope the buss gets her or the plane goes down. It is a no win situation. I have monitored membership this year and only 3 people have gotten in. Most of the breeders are out. I believe the membership is well belo...See More 2 hrs · Like Marcha Garn I believe the experienced judges are ignoring the changes. An exhibitor shared with me that at a recent show, with a new judge, the judge asked about a light gold dog and said she had almost DQ her. She talked to the other exhibitors after ward to get clarification and education. 2 hrs · Like Lisa Lambrecht Not all is what I heard. Much of what I have stated is factual and documented. 2 hrs · Like Kristina Sherling DQ light gold? I also worked diligently on fighting the most recent breed standard changes and all for naught. I even had a one-on-one session with a board member of AKC at the Mastiff Specialty that was held in Eugene, OR. I was also mentored by the s...See More 2 hrs · Unlike · 1 Kristina Sherling A point of hilarity BTW about the *breed standard committee* showing their total ignorance when they used a sunburnt black/tan dog (naturally with black pigmented nose) as an example of *chocolate*???? HUH??WTH???? In the breed standard changes they stated that only black pigment on a brown dog would be acceptable, a complete impossibility. 2 hrs · Unlike · 1 Judy Steffel I, for one, find it heartbreaking. Sometimes the problems are in the dogs and sometimes they are in the new owners. As mentioned somewhere above in this thread, things can go wrong with *any* breeding, no matter how careful and responsible the breede...See More 1 hr · Like Kristina Sherling This is why it is absolutely necessary, in order to HELP THE BREED, to keep complete and accurate records of start to finish. Darrens consulting surgeon for Arrow laughed at the copious email I sent, detailing everything about the Hope pregnancy, bloo...See More 1 hr · Edited · Like J
Posted on: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 22:52:48 +0000
Trending Topics
Recently Viewed Topics
© 2015