Reza Aslan slams Bill Maher for „facile arguments” about Muslim violence ( 9:04 min - all interview) Here is the transcript: DON LEMON, CNN: Were joined now by Reza Aslan, a scholar of religions, a professor at University of California, Riverside, and the author of Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. Lets talk about this because its a very interesting conversation every time we have it. Before we get into this discussion, I want to play with you this clip from Bill Mahers show just this Friday night. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MAHER: President Obama keeps insisting that ISIS is not Islamic. Well, maybe they dont practice the Muslim faith the same way he does. (LAUGHTER) MAHER: But if vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe, and they do, that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea or drawing a cartoon or writing a book or eloping with the wrong person, not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS; it has too much in common with ISIS. Theres so much talk -- you can applaud. Sure. (APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: He went on for a good five or six minutes about that, talking about how women are -- circumcision for women, not respecting the rights of women, not respecting the rights of gay people. And whats your reaction? And then we will talk. REZA ASLAN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, RIVERSIDE: Well, I like Bill Maher. I have been on his show a bunch of times. Hes a comedian. But, you know, frankly, when it comes to the topic of religion, hes not very sophisticated in the way that he thinks. I mean, the argument about the female genital mutilation being an Islamic problem is a perfect example of that. Its not an Islamic problem. Its an African problem. (CROSSTALK) CAMEROTA: Well, wait, wait, wait. (CROSSTALK) CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on a second Reza, because he says its a Muslim country problem. He says that, in Somalia... ASLAN: Yes, but thats -- yes. And thats actually empirically factually incorrect. Its a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. Its a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. Its a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue. But, again, this is the problem, is that you make these facile arguments that women are somehow mistreated in the Muslim world -- well, thats certainly true in many Muslim-majority countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Do you know that Muslims have elected seven women as their heads of state in those Muslim-majority countries? How many women do we have as states in the United States? (CROSSTALK) LEMON: Reza, be honest, though. For the most part, it is not a free and open society for women in those states. ASLAN: Well, its not in Iran. Its not in Saudi Arabia. It certainly is in Indonesia and Malaysia. It certainly is in Bangladesh. It certainly is in Turkey. I mean, again, this is the problem is that youre talking about a religion of 1.5 billion people and certainly it becomes very easy to just simply paint them all with a single brush by saying, well, in Saudi Arabia, they cant drive and so therefore that is somehow representative of Islam. Its representative of Saudi Arabia. (CROSSTALK) CAMEROTA: But hold on. I think that Bill Mahers point is that these arent extremists. We often talk about extremists and that we should crack down on extremists and why arent Muslims speaking out about extremists? In Saudi Arabia, when women cant vote and they cant drive and they need permission from their husband, thats not extremists. Why arent we talking more about what... ASLAN: Why? CAMEROTA: Thats not extremist. Thats commonplace. Why dont we talk more about the commonplace wrongs that are happening in some of these countries? (CROSSTALK) ASLAN: Its extremist when compared to the rights and responsibilities of women, Muslim women around the world. Its an extremist way of dealing with it. (CROSSTALK) LEMON: But its not extremist in that country, in Saudi Arabia. Thats the norm. (CROSSTALK) LEMON: Thats what she is saying. ASLAN: Oh, no, its not. I mean, look, Saudi Arabia is one of the most, if not the most, extremist Muslim country in the world. In the month that we have been talking about ISIS and their terrible actions in Iraq and Syria, Saudi Arabia, our closest ally, has beheaded 19 people. Nobody seems to care about that because Saudi Arabia sort of preserves our national interests. LEMON: OK. ASLAN: You know, but this is the problem, is that these kinds of conversations that were having arent really being had in any kind of legitimate way. Were not talking about women in the Muslim world. Were using two or three examples to justify a generalization. Thats actually the definition of bigotry. LEMON: All right, fair enough. Lets listen to Benjamin Netanyahu at the United Nations today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: So when it comes to their ultimate goals, Hamas is ISIS, and ISIS is Hamas. And what they share in common, all militant Islamists share in common. (END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So, Reza, the question at the bottom of the screen that everyone is looking at, does Islam promote violence? ASLAN: Islam doesnt promote violence or peace. Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it. If youre a violent person, your Islam, your Judaism, your Christianity, your Hinduism is going to be violent. There are Buddhist -- marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. And that depends on their politics, their social world, the way that they see their communities, the way they see themselves. CAMEROTA: So, Reza, you dont think that theres anything more -- theres -- the justice system in Muslim countries you dont think is somehow more primitive or subjugates women more than in other countries? ASLAN: Did you hear what you just said? You said in Muslim countries. I just told you that, Indonesia, women are absolutely 100 percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more female representatives, more female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States. LEMON: Yes, but in Pakistan... (CROSSTALK) ASLAN: Stop saying things like Muslim countries. LEMON: In Pakistan, women are still being stoned to death. ASLAN: And thats a problem for Pakistan. Youre right. So, lets criticize Pakistan. (CROSSTALK) LEMON: I just want to be clear on what your point is, because I thought you and Bill Maher were saying the same thing. Your point is that Muslim countries are not to blame. There is nothing particular, theres no common thread in Muslim countries, you cant paint with a broad brush that somehow their justice system or Sharia law or what theyre doing in terms of stoning and female mutilation is different than in other countries like Western countries? ASLAN: Stoning and mutilation and those barbaric practices should be condemned and criticized by everyone. The actions of individuals and societies and countries like Iran, like Pakistan, like Saudi Arabia must be condemned, because they dont belong in the 21st century. But to say Muslim countries, as though Pakistan and Turkey are the same, as though Indonesia and Saudi Arabia are the same, as though somehow what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries, these autocratic countries, is representative of whats happening in every other Muslim country, is, frankly -- and I use this word seriously -- stupid. So lets stop doing that. LEMON: OK, Reza. Lets -- I want you to listen to Benjamin Netanyahu again. This is actually the one I wanted you to hear. ASLAN: Yes, the ISIS. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NETANYAHU: But our hopes and the worlds hopes for peace are in danger, because everywhere we look, militant Islam is on the march. Its not militants. Its not Islam. Its militant Islam. And, typically, its first victims are other Muslims, but it spares no one. (END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Hes making a clear distinction there. He says its not militants, its not Islam; its militant Islam. Do you understand his distinction there? Is he correct? ASLAN: Well, hes correct in talking about militant Islam being a problem. He is absolutely incorrect in talking about ISIS equaling Hamas. Thats just ridiculous. No one takes him seriously when he says things like that. And, frankly, its precisely why, under his leadership, Israel has become so incredibly isolated from the rest of the global community. Those kinds of statements are illogical, theyre irrational, theyre so obviously propagandistic. In fact, he went so far as to then bring up the Nazis, which has become kind of a verbal tick for him whenever he brings up either Hamas or ISIS. Again, these kinds of oversimplifications I think only cause more danger. There is a very real problem. ISIS is a problem. Al Qaeda is a problem. These militant Islamic groups like Hamas, like Hezbollah, like the Taliban have to be dealt with. But it doesnt actually help us to deal with them when, instead of talking about rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion, we instead so easily slip into bigotry by simply painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.
Posted on: Wed, 01 Oct 2014 01:41:22 +0000
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