Some more discussions on sAkshI and sAkshyam Seeker: Acharya I want to clarify these things as an addition to my previous email (movie) about sakshi: Using seer-seen discrimination, sakshi can never be proved or observed or objectified. I only see its reflection but never the real sakshi, it is similar with trying to see my eyes directly, I can only see my eyes reflection on mirror at best. Whatever I can think or or know or observe or aware or prove, no matter how subtle it is, cannot be the sakshi that I am. So there is no need to prove or see the existence of sakshi in deep sleep state because even in waking and dreaming state, I can never prove or see the existence of sakshi. ---------------------- Sada: Up to this, it is correct. You are right on the button. SaaskhI requires no proof also, since it is pure consciousness. The very fact that the upAdhi or mind which is inert appearing as conscious entity, is enough proof that it is getting illumined by the pure all-illuminating consciousness. For example we do not know what life is – yet when we say the body is function starting from breathing, that is direct proof that there is life there. When the moon is shining in the night, even when there is no sun that we could see, we know that there is sunlight that is illumining the moon. The very presence of luminous moon, that which does not have luminosity of its own, proves that there must me something luminous that is illuminating the moon. Presence of the sunlight where the moon is cannot be recognized unless there is moon to reflect it. Sunlight does not need another light for me to see. It is like in a pitch dark room I am using a torch light to see objects there. Suddenly I see a pot but upside down. Out of curiosity, I go there and lift the pot and to my surprise I see a candle burning. Now do I have to use torch light to see the lighted candle? It is self-revealing. Similarly, I have to use jnaana prakriya (Vedanta vichaara) or contemplation on the mahaavaakyaas, to remove the ignorance (like pot being removed). The knowledge that I am - will shine through without any further effort needed, like seeing the burning candle. Hence Bhagavan Ramana says – aham aham tayaa spurati hRit swayam – spontaneously knowledge raises that I am – I am – I am - that which is supreme, full and of the nature of sat swaruupam – parama puurNa sat. --------------- Seeker: Sakshi is the ultimate subject which cannot be proved or disproved, the need of proof of sakshi existence is completely out of the picture, sakshi is the substratum of all so the all can be known, sakshi is self conscious and self evident, sakshi doesn’t need another proof. It is so normal to have total ignorance in deep sleep state, because even though I can aware of sakshi that I am in deep sleep state, what can I aware cannot be sakshi, because who is then witnessing this fact? Sada: At sAkshi level – there is no more subject-object, since there are no division of any kind. Hence we cannot even say sAkshI is ultimate subject. The subject-object distinctions come with the mind present. In the deep sleep also there is sAkshi since sAkshi is pure consciousness-existence and it is there all the time. Deep-sleep state is only where all the koshas are folded - first, the food sheath or annamaya to praanamaya (physiological functions) and then praanamaya to manomaya (mental sheath) and manomaya to vijnaana maya (intellectual sheath), and vijnaana maya to anandamaya – as discussed in the - who slept well – series. There is a reflection of consciousness (RC) in the ananadamaya kosha where there is a unchanging thought – I am sleeping, and I do not know anything. Sakshi is illuming the anandamaya kosha. Since the mind is in folded form, the knowledge that I am sleeping and I am ignorant of any subject-object duality is also in folded form. It expresses only when unfolding occurs in the reverse order – anandamaya to vijnana maya to manomaya to praanamaya and to annamaya. Sakshi can never be seen at any time since it cannot become an object for knowledge – since it is infinte. From the RC I have to claim that I am that sAskhI which enlivens all the koshas. Claiming my true nature that I am sAkshI using the mind is self-realization. -------------------------------------- Seeker: Deep sleep analysis also shows that sakshi cannot be a doer and knower, because if doing is intrinsic quality of sakshi then in deep sleep state, there will be thoughts even though the mind is folded like “ I can not do anything now” or “ I am knowing that I don’t know anything now”, in fact there are not. the doer, thinker and knower only exist when the mind is not folded. In deep sleep, mind is folded in its potential form, so the doer, knower also folded or cannot be found. (it is the mind who can think about the above process and express it, sakshi doesn’t need to know or think these facts at all) Sada: It is the scriptures that tell us that Brahmna is infinite and therefore part-less. The analysis of all the three states shows that I am different from all the three states. Since I am there in the waking state and waking state changes and I am there in the dream state which also changes and I am there in the deep sleep state which again changes to waking state. When I am there in all the states and unchaning while the states themselves changing shows that I am none of there three states even when I am there in all the three states. Hence scriptures (Mandykya Up. defines who that I am is that pervades all the three states, remains changeless while the states keep changing. Without me the states cannot exist. Thus scriptures points out in mantra 7 of Mandukya the nature of I am – as sat chit ananda swaruupa which is sAkshI of all the three states. Hence it Is not just the deep sleep state but the analysis of all the states are involved. It is again not by logic but scripture declares what that unchaning sAkshI of all the three states is. Scriptures provide the mahavakys saying that you are that sAkshI who pervades all the three worlds – waking, dream and deep sleep, yet unaffected by any of these states since you are just illumining the states without getting affected. I need to know since I am taking myself as I am this BMI. I have to claim my real status - I AM THAT. Otherwise taking the impermanent states as I am undergoing I suffer the consequences of the changing status. Who is that needs to know, I who is pure sat chit ananda looking at my own reflections and taking myself I am those reflections that is changing due to changing reflecting mediums. That is self-realization. It is like pot space has to recognize that I am the total space even while I am enclosed, as though, by the pot walls. --------------------------------------- Seeker: In reality there is no duality of seer and seen, it is like in dream world, the dream subject being chased by the dream tiger in dream forest, when the waker wakes up, all the dream subject and object are resolved in the waker mind only. So the subject-object duality can be proved as not absolute using the dream analogy, it is only notional or transactional reality. In fact, there is no sakshyam and sakshi, there is only all pervading non-dual consciousness, one without a second. Is that true Acharya? Sada: Yes, except for the fact that dreamer does not think it is a dream while in the dream. Similarly while I am identifying intensely with the BMI, I do not think I am not the BMI and that I am that sAskhi which enlivens the BMI. For that I have to mentally de-identify myself with the BMI and claim myself I am that sAkshI. The problem gets compounded by the fact that I have to use the same BMI in order to claim that I am not this BMI. It is like using the pot and claim that there is no pot here – what is there is only clay appearing as pot. Pot-space may have problems as I am small pot and the other fellow is big pot and I am garbage pot while the other fellow is honey-pot, etc. It has to recognize while still being in the pot that I am the total space that pervades all the pots and pot walls too and I am indivisible infinite space without any limitations. Similarly I have re-educate myself using the BMI that I am not the BMI but I am that which enlivens the BMI, while still using the BMI whatever its praarabda is destined or whatever roles that BMI has taken. What is stated about sAkshI and sAkhyam is correct, but realization has to take place as I am that sAkshI that is unaffected by any sAkshyam since I am only witnessing the conditional changes in the BMI while I remain as changeless. That claiming has to be done constantly without getting carried away with BMI’s problems. BMI will continue to have its problems, but recognition that as a sAkshI do not have any problems whatsoever. Abiding in that knowledge is jnaana niShTa. Thank you very much Acharya for helping me, My prostrations to Acharya ----------- No Problem. God Bless you. Hari Om! Sada
Posted on: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:24:07 +0000
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