A excerpt from A unique intimate dialogue with Katie and Stephen about how they met, how they came to collaborate and marry. Duncan Campbell: So, when did it occur that the two of you decided to get married? Byron Katie: Well, you know Stephen is very clear and I dont see how something like that could ever occur to me. I am already married. You know, I am married. My mind, you know again, this is complete. You know, nothing can add or subtract from this. But Stephen is a remarkable man. He said, you know, “Will you marry me?” And I just became very still. And for weeks, maybe a year I dont know, I think Stephen could probably tell you or longer – Stephen Mitchell: Some people could have a problem with that. Byron Katie: I was waiting to see why not. And my mind couldnt give me a reason why not. And Im probably, its like I love that it was Stephen because Im - just living with Stephen is an amazing experience. He was just very clear. “Lets get married.” And then – Duncan Campbell: And Stephen, what prompted that on your own part? Stephen Mitchell: It felt like we were married already, so – Byron Katie: Ah. Stephen Mitchell: I wanted the outside to match the inside. Byron Katie: And that was correct. Stephen Mitchell: And Katie was looking for a reason why not. And she called her children and she called her mother. Byron Katie: I called Paul. Duncan Campbell: Paul, your ex-husband? Byron Katie: Uh huh. My friends. Stephen Mitchell: And nobody could find a reason. And then one day we were in New York and I said, “Let’s go over to Tiffanys.” We found a very simple ring and it just unfolded like that. There is a very funny passage in the book about Katie not knowing even the moment before that there was a wedding going to happen and it did. I was amazed that she still has her wedding ring after six years because she tends to give away even very expensive presents when somebody likes it. And she actually tried to give away the wedding ring to a mutual friend – Duncan Campbell: Exactly. Stephen Mitchell: - of ours. And he gave it right back. Duncan Campbell: Yes, I remember that story. Yes. Stephen Mitchell: It just – Byron Katie: He gave it back the next day I think. Stephen Mitchell: It just happened with its own intelligence. Duncan Campbell: Well it seems it is very interesting to me. I am intrigued because you know we have the convention in society, which I think is true across many cultures, not all but many that we are aware of where it is the man who does the proposing and the woman who does the accepting and may withhold her judgment. She may wait until the time is right or whatnot. What do you think - either one of you that may have to do with the nature of masculine and feminine and that wonderful interaction? Byron Katie: Well you know, we did wait until the time was right and it was very surprising. I knew Stephen would know. And thats how it worked out. Duncan Campbell: I think of a poem of Rumi’s. At one point he was talking about the masculine. I think he was putting the Shiva Shakti thing in its traditional way on its head, manifesting and the feminine says, “Yes” to the manifestation. Byron Katie: Hmm, yeah. Duncan Campbell: That’s one way of thinking about it. So I went to propose to my own wife and I had the thought and I put my arms around her. She was at the kitchen sink and she turned around before I could even open my mouth and she said, “Yes!” It was remarkable. Byron Katie: Yeah, thats beautiful. Duncan Campbell: Yeah, very beautiful. Byron Katie: You know, something that I have never even told you honey that just came to me is Stephen has such discernment. He is amazing that way. And people put terms on me like enlightened and terms that I have never understood and dont have an interest in. Its like if I am, how would I know? Its not possible and living with Stephen, if there were something that would surface, he would feel it, smell it, taste it, be on top of it and give it to me. It is like living with a clearest, clearest, most wonderful awareness as a husband. Stephen Mitchell: I have a pretty well developed bullshit detector. Byron Katie: And I can laugh. I can joke. I can say anything and it doesnt matter what I say, there is a - I dont know, its a wonderful thing to be married to such a mirror. And I think we all are. Duncan Campbell: And I think that is the nature of our relationship. I recall a spiritual teacher I had who said, “If you want to accelerate your own awakeness, get married.” Byron Katie: Yeah, get married. Duncan Campbell: And he always talked about marriage as a meeting of these two spiritual friends and we are witnessing and supporting this saying “Yes” to each other, the spiritual friendship where each will support each other. Is it Rilke, Stephen I think it is, who talked about the nature of the depth of the sacred marriage is supporting each others sacred solitude. Stephen Mitchell: In “Letters To A Young Poet”. Duncan Campbell: Yeah. Stephen Mitchell: He has a wonderful passage about that. Duncan Campbell: Yeah. And so the solitude of the ‘it-ness’ rather than the ‘me-ness’ and respecting that and supporting that rather than trying to, as we see in so many of your dialogues with couples that - or one member of the couple who has agonized. Because I recall one young man named Bruce in your book was agonizing because his woman has left him. Byron Katie: Oh, in “I Need Your Love”? Duncan Campbell: Yes. Stephen Mitchell: No, no its in the new book. Duncan Campbell: Oh, in the new book. Byron Katie: Oh. Duncan Campbell: Bruce and Sheila is it? I forget. Stephen Mitchell: But anyway, he has the very firm conviction that she abandoned him. Duncan Campbell: Exactly. He knows that that happened as a fact. And then you start over the questions, “Can you absolutely know this is true?” He says, “Absolutely, it happened.” And then you embark on this long, wonderful dialogue with him and in the end he begins to have that wonderful sense of humor about himself and the audience is laughing and he is laughing and he is reading what he wrote. And he said, “It seems so absurd now that I would say this, you know.” Byron Katie: Yeah, so he was awake. Duncan Campbell: Yes. Byron Katie: To that. Stephen Mitchell: I love the dialogues in the book too because you can see the moment when somebody is going through that internal process and saying, “Oh my God, could this not be true, this thing that is my religion, that I would have died for, the belief that she abandoned me? Could it possibly not be true?” And then Katie guides him into the cause and effect of believing that and it is just wonderful having a front row seat in somebodys inner life. Duncan Campbell: Mmmhmm, and beautifully done because so vulnerable with these sanga, the audiences there. And instead of feeling shamed or exposed, the person held in that space feels liberated and he laughs right along with the audience and there is a sense of great community. That is what happened to me actually. What happened to me when I was doing The Work out there with you in Barstow was the sense of tremendous vulnerability. But it was so powerful there was no embarrassment to it. Byron Katie: Yes. Duncan Campbell: And it flowed right into the liberation. That is a remarkable thing about The Work. People may hold back thinking, “Gee, do I want to get up there in front of all these people?” But actually when one does it – Byron Katie: It’s quite different. Yes. -podcast episode: Living Dialogues part 2
Posted on: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:10:02 +0000