I will make a few concluding remarks to the group before I exit the group. It has been disappointing to me to see lack of real scriptural integrity on here, and tiresome trying to talk to those who will not actually read my arguments in full and all the verses cited, and actually answer them. Instead they just say they have a special revelation. Some have tried to actually honestly engage me, and I thank you all. No one has actually shown a verbal formula pronounced over anyone at a baptism in the Bible. No one has actually produced even one simple scripture that actually states that whoever receives the Spirit will always speak with tongues, or that it is the initial evidence of that. And no one can show Jesus actually called The Father anywhere in NT ( I explained the Hebrew of Is. 9:6). A few concluding points on the tongues issue: The prophet Joel said that when Spirit was poured out those who were empowered by it would prophesy, which means to testify or witness to the Mighty Works of God, to be messengers. Jesus says that they would be empowerd to be witnesses, and to testify (Acts 1:8, John 15:26). They were in Acts 2, and in other languages because of many people from all nations being there they told of Gods works. Acts 2:4-18. The Jewish Christians were doubting that Gentiles could be in Church, so it took that same thing to convince them. In other tongues they magnified God, prophesied. Acts 10:44-46. And another outside group, Johns disciples, did so too. Acts 19:6, and prophesied. If Samaritans did in Acts 8, that too would be to show an outcast group brought into church. It would be a message of that. Samaritans were reviled by the Jews. Notice these are all groups, and all involved prophesying. In these cases, at least in 3, it involved doing that in other languages. Thats what it took for God to speak to this people,with stammering lips and another tongue. Is. 28:11. This was the undoing of Babel, the uniting of all in Christ, the message to a stiffnecked people. But nowhere is it implied or taught either by Jesus or his apostles or Paul that every individual person forever after this will speak in tongues whenever they receive Spirit, or that we should be doubters, and not believe someone has received the Spirit if there is not some initial evidence of tongues. There is not even one case in the Bible that shows an individual receiving Spirit with initial evidence of tongues, only groups of different classes of people, actually no less than 12 at a time. There is no pattern of individuals seeking for spirit with tongues months and even years after repentance and remission of sins in baptism!! This is what I have seen in pentecostal churches. How can a person have believed and repented and been cleansed of sin in baptism but still be without the renewing Spirit, and not saved?!? And, conversely, there are Trinitarian Pentecostals who have the Spirit with tongues but are not correctly baptized supposedly, so actually have the Spirit in them without having their sins washed away! What rubbish is this! There is much emotional pain and needless fear in those pour souls who beg for years for Spirit with tongues! And this means great saints throughout history, like Mother Theresa, Charles and John Wesley, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, Jonathon Edwards, and literally millions of others who have lived and even died for Jesus are lost. That gates of hell prevailed for 1900 years, and even now only like 1 percent, if that, are saved! The cases in Acts have no similarity to such nonsense. No one is even expecting, let alone seeking tongues. It is always a surprise, sudden, and to groups who receive it all at once. And common denominator is prophesying, magnifying God, giving his message of unity and inclusion. Paul makes it clear that not all speak with tongues, that it is least of gifts, and he would rather that you prophesy. He would have clearly said somewhere in 1 Cor 12-14 that of course all do speak with tongues when they first get the Spirit, or that it was the initial sign of that. He never does, nor does Jesus, or Peter in his sermon on Pentecost. He makes it quite clear that Love is real evidence and important thing in 1 Cor. 13, no matter how many tongues you speak. He says in Gal. We are saved by faith working through love. And lists the fruits of Spirit in Gal. 5:22_23. And Jesus says thst it is by these fruits we shall know, and those who do his will, love like him will enter. See Mathew 7:20-23 and 25:31-46. James teaches this in James 2. And John in 1 John 2:5-6, 29;3:10,14,19-24;4:11-16 clearly states how we know we and others have the Spirit, and it is not tongues. Tongues were a sign for the unbelieving stiffnecked Jews in Acts. Be not faithless, but believing! A final note: there is also no mention in the noncanonical writings, or early church fathers who were disciples of the apostles, of tongues being the evidence of the Spirit or being part of salvation. They are only mentioned as one gift among many, such as healing, that some have in the Church. There surely would have been some mention or dispute about this if that had been teaching of the apostles!
Posted on: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:25:06 +0000
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