PART THREE Scott Lamaestra: Tommy, were there any plans for another album after I Got A Name? And would we have heard more guitar parts like in Top Hat Bar and Grill and Five Short Minutes? Tommy West: A lot of it would have depended on what he was writing. As far as I know, he was tapped out. He was kind of drying up. So my idea was to take some time off and let the three albums stay out for awhile and talk about a direction. He had been to Nashville and had had lunch with Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed. That wouldve been fun. I wouldve liked to take him to Nashville and be with the guys who I knew down there. But its really almost impossible to answer what would have happened. I wouldve loved to do the piano thing. But my instincts tell me that it would probably have been another year before there was another Croce album, and rightfully so. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: What in your opinion made Jim use Ovations over Martins later in his career? Tommy West: Because you couldnt break them. He had used my Gibson Dove for studio recording and on the road for awhile and didnt want to use that. And he had a Martin, but Maury was the one who used Martins on the recordings. And, as everybody knows who is into guitars, Ovations are virtually indestructible because of the fiberglass, Vietnam helicopter backs that they have. And it proved to be true because in the plane, everybody was creamed, but the Ovations came through. So its a matter of expedience why he played them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Lamaestra: Did Jim play any other instruments besides the guitar? Tommy West: Well actually he started out on the accordion, and he was barely competent on the accordion. I would see him once in awhile sit at the piano, but I never knew him to really try to do anything. He tried to play a little bit of banjo, but his main thing was that he developed a very steady Travis-picky, finger-picky kind of style. He was not a good strummer. On the single of I Got A Name, he didnt play guitar. I played three guitars and Maury played lead and I played the piano and helped with percussion, and then mixed it. But he wasnt a good strummer. He could really finger-pick steadily and thank God he had Maury because Maury played the lead, you know. So I would have loved to do - looking back on it - we didnt think in these terms in those days, where you might do just guitar/voice versions of those tunes, with just two guitars and him. That wouldve been fun. Maybe someday Ill go in and get permission to get the multi-tracks out and do that - just him and Maury. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: Whats one fact that people dont know about Jim, Maury, and yourself? Tommy West: One fact? (Tommy laughs) Well, there was the day in my apartment in 1972. They had come back from San Francisco and they were sick. And Jim had a weird sense of humor. Jim had gone through his throwing up phase of the sickness and was on his way to recovery. Maury was going through the crisis and had to throw up in my apartment. And on his way to the bathroom to throw up, he started to shut the door, as all civilized people would do. But Jim said, Leave it open. I want to listen. Thats something nobody knows. And also that got me sick. I ended up with a little bit of hepatitis and mono because of them. But, the three of us, we didnt have enough time to develop a lot of stuff. Jim and I used to double date a lot. And I had a big mouth in those days, like all college seniors. And he would fix us up with - I dont know where he found them - but two girls. And he said, Now make sure you dont say anything about the Irish tonight. These girls are both Irish. Dont get on your Italian thing. And so naturally I would say something. I would sit in the back and I would say to these women, Is it true that all you know how to cook are potatoes? And it would start. So we would take them home, drop them off, and then go to his house and hed make sausage, which was really my aim in the first place - to go home and eat and get rid of these people. But we had a thing where we had a code. Wed just look at each other, because we spent so much time together in college. And what we did in college became his on-stage raps. And one time we were in California. He couldnt swim and it was hot. We were playing the Troubadour. And I said, Why dont you go in the pool? He said, I cant swim. I said, Ill tell you what. Lets go get a rope. And we got this big rope. You tie it around your waist and Ill take the rope. Ill go to the deep end and Ill pull you. And it was kind of this weird humor. It would just start and we would imitate people that we saw on television. We would sit at the Villanova Student Union building and kind of take in the world. Or we would go to a festival. We liked to go to the Amish Country because they were so clean. And everybodys name was Zuck up there, it seemed. And wed talk to them. Or wed go to Longwood Gardens at the DuPont estate. We just hung out. It was just one of those kind of things where it was easy. Whatever we did was easy. And thats why the music was so good - because he trusted me. He would do his part and go take a walk and hed come back and hed say, Howd you do that? I said, Im a genius, Jim. And hed laugh. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Lamaestra: Tommy, we all know that the Nashville Tribute Album was pretty weak – so, if you had a chance to pick the artists, who would you like to see record some of Jims songs? Tommy West: Well, if youre talking about it. This is an idea that I have. In my minds eye, I could see an album coming out called Ill Have to Say I Love You In A Song, but one Nashville artist that Ive always wanted to have sing Jims songs is Merle Haggard. I think he could do Operator. I dont think in terms of other Nashville artists doing his stuff because when you take Jims stuff and make it too southern, it just sounds like another southern rock song to me. But if you take really unique artists like Lyle Lovett or K.D. Lang or The Pointer Sisters doing Leroy Brown, or Ray Charles doing You Dont Mess Around With Jim, or The Manhattan Transfer doing an a capella version of Time In A Bottle - now youre talking about something. But Haggard could do Operator. Garth Brooks liked Jim a lot. He could probably do something - over sing it, but it would sound pretty good. The Everly Brothers - I would love to have the Everly Brothers do Dreamin Again or something like that. And maybe someday, Ill do it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: We understand that Jim was being considered as a summer replacement for The Tonight Show. Did he ever appear on that show, and do any clips exist? Tommy West: There are two Tonight Show performances which maybe dont exist. The first time he did it, Carson was the host and they just did You Dont Mess Around With Jim and a little bit of Operator. The second time was when John Davidson was the substitute host and Jim and Maury and I were all on. I remember that because I made this huge piano mistake in Dreamin Again, and that almost knocked him off his stool. But he did the show twice and so maybe thats archivally stored someplace. I dont know. And the other stuff is Midnight Special and Kirshner Rock Concert footage. And theres some college concert footage here and there - not a lot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: At the end of the interview, Tommy asked to say a few words. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tommy West: This is the first time Ive ever had anything to do with the internet. My dear friend, Tom Orecchio, has arranged for me to do this, which I hope Ill do again. Its kind of fun, even though Im sitting in my home, my studio, and were talking about this. And it always amazes me how many people are into this music and how many people hand it down to their kids and their grandkids now. And I feel blessed that I was able to do it. Its kind of like - weve all been in this business and everybody wants to be in it and Ive always kind of thought that Croce fans were a little different than some other kind of fans. Its a different kind of career. Almost invariably Jim Croce fans are nice people. Theyre sensitive to other peoples feelings. Theyre helpful, which is amazing to me because that was what he was. He was the kind of guy who, when he went to Paris, he brought me back a turtleneck sweater and a bottle of cologne, which I still have and still use one drop at a time at Christmas. And there have been a lot of people that have passed through show business and music that were great acts. Jim was a great non-act. What you saw was pretty close to what you got. He learned that blue work shirts worked. When we told him that he looked good in a work shirt, he bought a couple of dozen - very pragmatic. He once tried to grow a beard and we all practically beat him up, so he didnt do that. But the way he got to people - I mean when you look at his body of work, which is basically some 30 odd songs and some demos - its an amazing, amazing accomplishment. And I guess it makes me feel proud of myself that I saw in him, even in college, that he was a great communicator. He was a horseshit songwriter, but he was a great communicator. My mother said, That guy makes you feel like youre in his living room. That was junior year of college in 1962. And then later on he would get into things and I would teach him songs and he would teach me songs. We were like mirrors for each other musically. And we could play two hours of Coasters music, and an hour of Drifters music, and then go into The Beach Boys and Hermans Hermits if we wanted to. But there was this thing that he had - that when he started telling the truth, the songs came out. And I would imagine that if I were to meet all the people who sent me these questions, that I would like most of the people. And you would probably like me, and we would probably pick up like I was talking to him. After Jim died, I would get letters - there was no e-mail then - I would get letters saying really sweet things like, If youre ever in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and youre appearing or youre doing something and youre doing radio stations and you want a home cooked meal, we would like you to come. And it was done in such a way that you could not help but respond. There have been people like Margaret Cafarelli, who I’ve only spent like a couple of hours with in 25 years, and Tom Orecchio, who has become a dear friend. Because you have like a commonality, a common ground that starts with the guy that wrote these songs. And in a way, when Cashman and I produced the records, what it really sounds like to me is three guys having a good time, pretty much at the top of their game. Not thinking about how much money we would make, which was considerable - Jims family is very well off - but would his mother and father like it? That was really what I wanted to show them - that he could do this - because they didnt want him in show business. But what it comes down to is that were all around for a only a few years. Jim was around for a lot fewer. But if theres a hereafter - well find each other - all of us will find each other. And youll all get to hear him when you pass and see him, because I know hes there. I mean, I cant tell you all the weird stories that have happened to me about his presence and all that stuff. And I dont usually believe that stuff, but I got to be a believer in - when you go before your time, your presence hangs over everything for awhile. And hell be reincarnated before me, because it takes about 200 years to come back, they say. So hell be older than me, and hell be watching out for me. And I know hes there. So, see you later, Jim. Thanks for all these questions. Scott Lamaestra: Tommy, were there any plans for another album after I Got A Name? And would we have heard more guitar parts like in Top Hat Bar and Grill and Five Short Minutes? Tommy West: A lot of it would have depended on what he was writing. As far as I know, he was tapped out. He was kind of drying up. So my idea was to take some time off and let the three albums stay out for awhile and talk about a direction. He had been to Nashville and had had lunch with Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed. That wouldve been fun. I wouldve liked to take him to Nashville and be with the guys who I knew down there. But its really almost impossible to answer what would have happened. I wouldve loved to do the piano thing. But my instincts tell me that it would probably have been another year before there was another Croce album, and rightfully so. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: What in your opinion made Jim use Ovations over Martins later in his career? Tommy West: Because you couldnt break them. He had used my Gibson Dove for studio recording and on the road for awhile and didnt want to use that. And he had a Martin, but Maury was the one who used Martins on the recordings. And, as everybody knows who is into guitars, Ovations are virtually indestructible because of the fiberglass, Vietnam helicopter backs that they have. And it proved to be true because in the plane, everybody was creamed, but the Ovations came through. So its a matter of expedience why he played them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Lamaestra: Did Jim play any other instruments besides the guitar? Tommy West: Well actually he started out on the accordion, and he was barely competent on the accordion. I would see him once in awhile sit at the piano, but I never knew him to really try to do anything. He tried to play a little bit of banjo, but his main thing was that he developed a very steady Travis-picky, finger-picky kind of style. He was not a good strummer. On the single of I Got A Name, he didnt play guitar. I played three guitars and Maury played lead and I played the piano and helped with percussion, and then mixed it. But he wasnt a good strummer. He could really finger-pick steadily and thank God he had Maury because Maury played the lead, you know. So I would have loved to do - looking back on it - we didnt think in these terms in those days, where you might do just guitar/voice versions of those tunes, with just two guitars and him. That wouldve been fun. Maybe someday Ill go in and get permission to get the multi-tracks out and do that - just him and Maury. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: Whats one fact that people dont know about Jim, Maury, and yourself? Tommy West: One fact? (Tommy laughs) Well, there was the day in my apartment in 1972. They had come back from San Francisco and they were sick. And Jim had a weird sense of humor. Jim had gone through his throwing up phase of the sickness and was on his way to recovery. Maury was going through the crisis and had to throw up in my apartment. And on his way to the bathroom to throw up, he started to shut the door, as all civilized people would do. But Jim said, Leave it open. I want to listen. Thats something nobody knows. And also that got me sick. I ended up with a little bit of hepatitis and mono because of them. But, the three of us, we didnt have enough time to develop a lot of stuff. Jim and I used to double date a lot. And I had a big mouth in those days, like all college seniors. And he would fix us up with - I dont know where he found them - but two girls. And he said, Now make sure you dont say anything about the Irish tonight. These girls are both Irish. Dont get on your Italian thing. And so naturally I would say something. I would sit in the back and I would say to these women, Is it true that all you know how to cook are potatoes? And it would start. So we would take them home, drop them off, and then go to his house and hed make sausage, which was really my aim in the first place - to go home and eat and get rid of these people. But we had a thing where we had a code. Wed just look at each other, because we spent so much time together in college. And what we did in college became his on-stage raps. And one time we were in California. He couldnt swim and it was hot. We were playing the Troubadour. And I said, Why dont you go in the pool? He said, I cant swim. I said, Ill tell you what. Lets go get a rope. And we got this big rope. You tie it around your waist and Ill take the rope. Ill go to the deep end and Ill pull you. And it was kind of this weird humor. It would just start and we would imitate people that we saw on television. We would sit at the Villanova Student Union building and kind of take in the world. Or we would go to a festival. We liked to go to the Amish Country because they were so clean. And everybodys name was Zuck up there, it seemed. And wed talk to them. Or wed go to Longwood Gardens at the DuPont estate. We just hung out. It was just one of those kind of things where it was easy. Whatever we did was easy. And thats why the music was so good - because he trusted me. He would do his part and go take a walk and hed come back and hed say, Howd you do that? I said, Im a genius, Jim. And hed laugh. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Lamaestra: Tommy, we all know that the Nashville Tribute Album was pretty weak – so, if you had a chance to pick the artists, who would you like to see record some of Jims songs? Tommy West: Well, if youre talking about it. This is an idea that I have. In my minds eye, I could see an album coming out called Ill Have to Say I Love You In A Song, but one Nashville artist that Ive always wanted to have sing Jims songs is Merle Haggard. I think he could do Operator. I dont think in terms of other Nashville artists doing his stuff because when you take Jims stuff and make it too southern, it just sounds like another southern rock song to me. But if you take really unique artists like Lyle Lovett or K.D. Lang or The Pointer Sisters doing Leroy Brown, or Ray Charles doing You Dont Mess Around With Jim, or The Manhattan Transfer doing an a capella version of Time In A Bottle - now youre talking about something. But Haggard could do Operator. Garth Brooks liked Jim a lot. He could probably do something - over sing it, but it would sound pretty good. The Everly Brothers - I would love to have the Everly Brothers do Dreamin Again or something like that. And maybe someday, Ill do it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: We understand that Jim was being considered as a summer replacement for The Tonight Show. Did he ever appear on that show, and do any clips exist? Tommy West: There are two Tonight Show performances which maybe dont exist. The first time he did it, Carson was the host and they just did You Dont Mess Around With Jim and a little bit of Operator. The second time was when John Davidson was the substitute host and Jim and Maury and I were all on. I remember that because I made this huge piano mistake in Dreamin Again, and that almost knocked him off his stool. But he did the show twice and so maybe thats archivally stored someplace. I dont know. And the other stuff is Midnight Special and Kirshner Rock Concert footage. And theres some college concert footage here and there - not a lot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Orecchio: At the end of the interview, Tommy asked to say a few words. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tommy West: This is the first time Ive ever had anything to do with the internet. My dear friend, Tom Orecchio, has arranged for me to do this, which I hope Ill do again. Its kind of fun, even though Im sitting in my home, my studio, and were talking about this. And it always amazes me how many people are into this music and how many people hand it down to their kids and their grandkids now. And I feel blessed that I was able to do it. Its kind of like - weve all been in this business and everybody wants to be in it and Ive always kind of thought that Croce fans were a little different than some other kind of fans. Its a different kind of career. Almost invariably Jim Croce fans are nice people. Theyre sensitive to other peoples feelings. Theyre helpful, which is amazing to me because that was what he was. He was the kind of guy who, when he went to Paris, he brought me back a turtleneck sweater and a bottle of cologne, which I still have and still use one drop at a time at Christmas. And there have been a lot of people that have passed through show business and music that were great acts. Jim was a great non-act. What you saw was pretty close to what you got. He learned that blue work shirts worked. When we told him that he looked good in a work shirt, he bought a couple of dozen - very pragmatic. He once tried to grow a beard and we all practically beat him up, so he didnt do that. But the way he got to people - I mean when you look at his body of work, which is basically some 30 odd songs and some demos - its an amazing, amazing accomplishment. And I guess it makes me feel proud of myself that I saw in him, even in college, that he was a great communicator. He was a horseshit songwriter, but he was a great communicator. My mother said, That guy makes you feel like youre in his living room. That was junior year of college in 1962. And then later on he would get into things and I would teach him songs and he would teach me songs. We were like mirrors for each other musically. And we could play two hours of Coasters music, and an hour of Drifters music, and then go into The Beach Boys and Hermans Hermits if we wanted to. But there was this thing that he had - that when he started telling the truth, the songs came out. And I would imagine that if I were to meet all the people who sent me these questions, that I would like most of the people. And you would probably like me, and we would probably pick up like I was talking to him. After Jim died, I would get letters - there was no e-mail then - I would get letters saying really sweet things like, If youre ever in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and youre appearing or youre doing something and youre doing radio stations and you want a home cooked meal, we would like you to come. And it was done in such a way that you could not help but respond. There have been people like Margaret Cafarelli, who I’ve only spent like a couple of hours with in 25 years, and Tom Orecchio, who has become a dear friend. Because you have like a commonality, a common ground that starts with the guy that wrote these songs. And in a way, when Cashman and I produced the records, what it really sounds like to me is three guys having a good time, pretty much at the top of their game. Not thinking about how much money we would make, which was considerable - Jims family is very well off - but would his mother and father like it? That was really what I wanted to show them - that he could do this - because they didnt want him in show business. But what it comes down to is that were all around for a only a few years. Jim was around for a lot fewer. But if theres a hereafter - well find each other - all of us will find each other. And youll all get to hear him when you pass and see him, because I know hes there. I mean, I cant tell you all the weird stories that have happened to me about his presence and all that stuff. And I dont usually believe that stuff, but I got to be a believer in - when you go before your time, your presence hangs over everything for awhile. And hell be reincarnated before me, because it takes about 200 years to come back, they say. So hell be older than me, and hell be watching out for me. And I know hes there. So, see you later, Jim. Thanks for all these questions.
Posted on: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:00:01 +0000
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