VaNakkam I was made aware of a post by Maheshan Naidoo where he makes claims of Tamils dependence on Sanskrit. I cant see the post as he had blocked me due to me questioning the logic in one of his posts on this group wall. Due to his post, and a sense of an attempting Sanskrit take-over of this group, I put this post together. I appeal to our Tamil people to not bow down to Sanskrit. I have nothing against the language but, when attempts are made to oppress Tamil, we should not give in. Please make an attempt to study and question. Us Tamils are a very hospitable and tolerant people. Let the hospitality continue but its time to put an end to tolerance in this regard. Please refer to Mahesans post regarding Trishen Govenders request of him to stop posting Sanskrit in this group to make sense of this post. Please forgive all spelling and grammar errors. 1. This group does not subscribe to the rules of Temples. As been stated over and over this is not a Hindu group. Furthermore, prayer being conducted in Sanskrit is a later introduction through kings marrying with royalty of the North and introducing Aryan priests into Hindu temples. Sidhambaram at one point had Andhannars, who were temple priests, but after invasions, the order of Dheekshidhars came to be. We have two separate terms as these are priests belonging to two separate languages and cultures. There are still Aadhi Saiva Priests who chant only in Tamil and at the Siva Temples he made reference to, Tamil Thirumurrai is still given preference. The deceitful acts of Sanskrit Priests have lead to the destruction of much Tamil scripture. We cant just roll over and accept Sanskrit just because our Tamil temples were invaded by Aryan priests. Due to this practice in India, such traditions were introduced here in SA. As a Saiva Sithaandha student, I will agree with the Sanskrit Sivaagamaas due to its philosophy but, even these were once in Tamil; the culture in the Sivaagamaas are undoubtedly Tamil and not Aryan. Similarly, the NaanmaRai (ARam, PoruL, Inbam and VeeDu) were destroyed with the entrance of the Aryan race into India. CONCLUSION: Tamil was the original language used in Temples of Tamil Nadu until Sanskrit. SATU is not subjected to the practices of Temples. Sanskrit priests have brought about much destruction and suppression of Tamil scripture for Sanskrit to be the only language but, through efforts by Kings like Raaja Raaja SohZHan and Saint, Thiru Nambi AaNDaar Nambi, their attempts were crushed. 2. Agathiyars work, Agathiyam, is not dated 300 - 350 BC. The Tholkkaappiyam is dated as such. However, it is accepted that the Tholkkaappiyam is the only work from the Second Sangam to have survived into the Third Sangam. Generally, the term Sangam, refers to only the Third Sangam. Note that the Sanskrit Vedas were first recorded as text around 1000 AD and was dated according to description and not according to tests done on the actual leaves they were recorded on whereas the dating of Tholkkaappiyam is done on the leaves themselves and not according to the information contained within. The Tholkkaappiyam states that it is of the tradition of Agathiyam, meaning that Agathiyam predates the date Maheshan has provided. Note that Agathiyam was not recovered in text form. Furthermore, in order for a Grammar to be written, a language has to have first developed via non-grammatical works. The traditional dating of Agathiyar is around 6000BC, together with fellow Scholar and Saint, Thiru Moola Naayanaar. The Vedas Sanskritised a lot, including the name of Lord Sivan into Shiva. Sivan is derived from Tamil in two ways: 1. From the word Sivappu (Red), describing the golden-red colour of Lord Sivan and 2. From the TAMIL acronym Namasivaya; in this, Si comes from the word SiRappu which is an ancient word for God and refers to Lord Sivan and Va comes from the word Vanappu which refers to AruL Sathi or the Divine Grace of Sivan. Siva therefore was adopted by the Aryans and became referred to as Shiva, which means auspicious. In this, the claims by Maheshan that the word Siva was derived from Shiva is false. The Vedas use a Sanskritised version of a Tamil word or personality and not the original. This therefore cannot count as evidence to prove that something has Vedic origins. It is a shame that when Maheshan copied the meaning of Agathiyar from Wikipedia, he only provided the Sanskrit meaning and not the Tamil meaning, which is also given. Furthermore, he failed to mention that many Tamil scholars do not consider the Agastya mentioned in Vedas to be Agathiyar, the Tamil-Saiva-Sithar-Pulavar. This shows that he is using information only to support his bias. IMPORTANT: LORD SIVAN FOUNDED AND HEADED THE FIRST SANGAM AS IRaiyanaar AND AGATHIYA SITHAR HEADED THE SECOND SANGAM INITIATED BY LORD SIVAN AS MURUGA PERUMAAN. NEITHER LORD SIVAN NOR AGATHIYAR INITIATED, HEADED OR PARTICIPATED IN ANY SANSKRIT AGE. Please note that there are 96 books that claim to be authored by Agathiyar. As it is not claimed that the Agathiyar we speak of here authored all of these books, it can be said that there were others that used the name Agathiyar and therefore, in all possibility, that a different individual using the name Agastya is credited with the earliest Sanskrit grammar. The Indus Valley Civilisation, and many other civilization sites, including area as far as Mecca, have evidence of Tamil founding, development and lifestyle. Therefore, using the fact that Agathiyar traveled South from the North, to substantiate claims that Agathiyar was a Vedic priest is null and void as even North India would have been populated by Tamils who were later forced South by Aryan, NIA and Mugal invasions. I will use invasion with regards to the Aryan movement into India. Maheshans bias towards Sanskrit has a again led to him distorting history. Looking at information on the original Sithars, they were 1. Tamil and 2. Saiva Sithaandhins. Saiva Sithaandham is a philosophy directly associated with the Tamil People. Agathiyar is one of 8 Students of Thiru Nandhiyaar, the Primary Student of Lord Sivan and First Scholar of Saiva Sithaandham. The order of Sithars began far before the advent of the Vedas and Ayurvedic medicine therefore it is quite the opposite of what he claims. Sithar Medicine, given directly by Lord Sivan to Agathiyar in South India, came before Ayurvedic Medicine. As Ayurvedic medicine borrowed from Sithar Medicine, Sanskrit borrowed from Tamil but more on this later. CONCLUSION: The dating given by Maheshan for Agathiyam is incorrect and is truly the dating of the Tholkkaappiyam, the most ancient surviving Tamil text. The Sanskrit word Shiva is taken from the Tamil word Siva; the meaning of the Sanskrit word Shiva describes the Nature of Lord Sivan, Who is specially associated with Tamil. Maheshan has mentioned only the Sanskrit interpretation of Agastya and not the Tamil meaning of the name Agathiyar. Therefore, the use of the Sanskrit meaning to prove that Agathiyar was of Vedic descent is flawed and invalid. Agathiyar was not a Vedic priest as during His time, there was no Sanskrit Vedas therefore, no Vedic influence. Agathiyar, like Tamil, is pre-Vedic, pre-Aryan and pre-Sanskrit. The order of Tamil Sithars, Who were exponents of Sithar Medicine, predated the Vedic-Ayurveda medicine. 3. There has for a long, long time, due to Aryan intended superiority over Tamils, to make it seem that Tamil is indebted to Sanskrit and whilst Tamil is the language of earth dwellers, Sanskrit was the language of gods. This needs to stop and we as Tamils need not bow down to such obnoxious claims. The suppression of darker skinned people by lighter skinned people still goes on and was even rife in ancient times. Aryans are an Indo-European lighter-skinned people that moved into the land of darker-skinned Tamil people and as there was racial oppression, there was also class, culture, tradition and language oppression. They basically changed history to make themselves superior and many Tamils for 1000s of years merely accepted this. It stops here. Whilst this is so, it must be noted that many of Aryan descent embraced Tamil culture and traditions but this was not on a large scale. Therefore, just because a word is used in Sanskrit Vedas that is linked to a Tamil word, does not mean that the word has Vedic origins. Again, I stress that the earliest Sanskrit text, namely the Rig Veda, is dated 1000 AD whilst the earliest Tamil text, namely, the Tholkkaappiyam is dated 300 BC. The Aryans and Vedic traditions have special association with prayer. In fact, prayer forms the basis of the Sanskrit Vedas. The Sanskrit word for prayer is poojai. Due to prayer playing a fundamental role in the Vedic tradition, the word poojai can be classified as one of the most ancient Sanskrit words. But, where did the word come from? If we break the word up, we have poo and jai. The word poo is undoubtedly a popular Tamil word which means flower. If we then investigate jai from a Tamil perspective, as the j is usually substituted with the Tamil s sound, and vice versa, jai is taken to be sai (pronounced say); sai is derived from the Tamil word sey (also pronounced say) which means to do. Therefore, poojai has its origins from the Tamil phrase poo sey which means to do (using) flower. The use of flower is specially associate with worship in Tamil culture. The term poo sey describes the performance of Archanai which predates the Vedic VehLvi - the primary tradition of Aryan worship - and has been performed since ancient times by Tamil people by the offering of fresh flower or petals to a Moorthi as a means of Devotional Worship. We have, in the 7th Century, the first verse of the first Padhigam of Child Saint, Thiru Nyaanasambandha Naayanaar, stating, YehDuDaiya Malaraan MunainaaT PaNindhu Yehtha AruL Seydha (I was Bestowed Divine Grace due to my past performance of Penance using fresh flowers). Before singing this Padhigam, there was no evidence of Thiru Nyaanasambandha Naayanaar performing Archanai in that birth therefore, in the 7th Century, He is referring to the performance of Archanai in previous births. By the way, even though Thiru Nyaanasambandha Naayanaar came from a Braaman lineage, He termed Himself Thamizh-Nyaanasambandhar, giving greater importance to Tamil than Sanskrit which is the primary language of Braamans. In recent years, apart from syntax, it has been proven that Sanskrit came to be from a merging of two languages, that is, the language brought in by the Aryans, and Tamil, the language of the land which they had moved into. CONCLUSION: The argument that the word Kaappiyam came from the Sanskrit word Kavyam is not valid as the opposite is far more viable given that one of the most ancient Sanskrit words, came from Tamil. The fact that Sanskrit uses Tamil word-order shows that Tamil was an extremely developed language with its own independent grammar before Sanskrit was even founded in India. It has recently been concluded that Tamil influenced the founding and development of Sanskrit far more than Sanskrit influenced Tamil in later times. 4. The same argument above applies to the word Sangam however, the word Sangam was not used during the Sangam age to refer to these periods or gatherings but rather, the word KooDal was used. So, the word Sangam was used after the Sangam period itself and even if originated from a Sanskrit word, it was not the original word used to refer to the three Tamil Academic Periods. If Sanskrit borrowed syntax from Tamil, they also wouldve borrowed the alphabet system. Tamil Grammar came straight from Lord Sivan Who founded the First Tamil Sangam as IRaiyanaar (The Mattered Locks Lord Who Burnt the Three Forts), Who bestowed this Grammar to Agathiyar at Thiru Innambar. As YeN or number is also included in Tamil Grammar, the number system was also given at the same time. Alphabet and Numbers have always went hand in hand in Tamil tradition symbolising Art and Science, Devotion and Philosophy, etc. Even the 0 (Zero) is claimed by Sanskrit sympathisers to be of Aryan origin but is in fact of Tamil origin. The digit 0 is still used in Tamil but not Sanskrit. The claim that Sanskrit is 2500 years older than Tamil is utter nonsense and ridiculous. Again, Veda scripts, which are dated 2500BC, earliest 3500BC, is not dated by carbon dating but rather as an approximation, whereas, the earliest Tamil text is dated according to carbon dating, which is solid and precise, and is a text which speaks of Tamil going back to eras far too antique to put a dating to. Tamil already had a firm grammar before the founding of Sanskrit. Im not sure which rock Maheshan has been hiding under but its time he crawls out and get a bit of sunlight. CONCLUSION: The conclusion made by Maheshan The very oldest work in tamil and the period in Tamil itself was written by a vedic Sage .Which means that Tamil has a strong lineage from Sanskrit, is incorrect due to his ignorance of the Tamil Sangam era and a proper History of India and the Tamil People. 300BC is attributed only to the 3rd Sangam and not to the beginning of the Sangam age. The fact that Tholkkaappiyam belonged to an earlier period that 300BC is proof that earlier periods existed. 5. It will be absurd to claim that Sanskrit had no influence on Tamil however its even more absurd to believe that Tamil has ALWAYS been dependent upon and influenced by Sanskrit. There are many Sanskrit words used today in Tamil however, they all have Tamil equivalent. If Sanskrit is removed from Tamil, Tamil can still stand as a language on its own; the same cannot be said of Sanskrit. The greatness of Tamil is proven by it being the most ancient language still to be spoken. Sanskrit is not recognised as a spoken language anymore. Due to the unnatural culture of Aryans, the language fell whereas, Tamil has survive as it is extremely natural. So yes, for Tamil texts, even those belonging to the part of the Sangam age which ran parallel to the development of Sanskrit, to use Sanskrit words is only natural and will not be denied. However, again, this cannot be used as proof to support his bias hypothesis that Tamil heavily borrowed from Sanskrit. There is a reason why the Government of India, which is more Sanskrit influenced, chose Tamil as the first language to be conferred Classical Language status. Maheshan should ask himself why Sanskrit was not given such a status before Tamil. Yes, even though ThiruvaLLuvar may have used a variation of the word Bhagawan, the fact that this is only one cir compared to 9310 cirs of the ThirukkuRaL, shows how little influence Sanskrit had on Tamil during 30BC. Aadhi and Ulagam cannot be claimed as having Sanskrit origin just because it is mentioned in the Vedas. CONCLUSION: Tamil can survive without influence from any other language. Tamil is the first language to be conferred Classical Language status by the Government of India. Maheshans claim, Tamil has heavily borrowed from Sanskrit, is a bias statement made out of what he wants to see without considering the bigger picture; Maheshan has used 0.01% influence on ThirukkuRaL to support his nonsensical claims. FINAL CONCLUSION: This is a Tamil group. No one is stopping any from promoting Sanskrit. Just dont do so in a Tamil group. If you cannot abide by the rules, Im sure admin will agree, youre welcome to hit Leave Group. Tamil is far more ancient that Sanskrit and even though has been influenced by Sanskrit, without it, there is no Sanskrit. Tamil people need to wake-up and learn how to defend themselves against such Sanskrit sympathises. You have the responsibility to study Tamil including its history. Dont be traitors to your own language and lead to its downfall. Tamil-based Temples need to also buck-up and start promoting the proper recital Tamil Scriptures, and just give importance to devotional music written and composed within the last 100 years. Support our Tamil Scriptures. Sanskrit is not a must for chanting to take place in Temples; our Tamil Scriptures as well can be chanted. Promote the ability to read and recite these Scriptures properly. Maheshan has used mostly outdated and refuted views as supporting evidence; they hold no water. YengaL ThamiZH SemmoZHi VaaZHga! Hail our Classical Tamil Language. NanDRi
Posted on: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:37:41 +0000
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