BOBBY RESPONDS TO ROY RUNYON ... Roy: One must understand the differing measures of the Holy Spirit (HS).Jesus had the HS without measure: Bobby: Roy, Ive been studying, promoting and defending the Apostles One God(Monotheistic) Doctrine for a very long time. And, while I dont claim toknow it all, I have learned a whole bunch, is so doing, over the course ofthe past 29+ years. And, being a former trinitarian, myself, I also know thehoops most trinitarians jump through. I just dont always know thesequence theyll jump through them. That said, one of the things, I must admit, that I do grow a little weary dealing with, is people who play shellgames with words and points, trying to establish something to support theirbelief(s) which the Bible just does NOT say ... ANYWHERE. Now, I am awarethat the Bible speaks of NINE different gifts of the Holy Spirit (in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12) which God put in the Church. And, I also know that Jesus was the embodiment of the Holy Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE (i.e., fullness of the Godhead BODILY .. Colossians 2:8-10), but I am totally unaware ofwhere the Bible says anything at all about there being different measures of the Holy Spirit for various and sundry OR different believers anywhere at any time during the entire New Testament Church Age. Now, again, **IF** you have Biblical support that says my wood is all wet, Ill definitely evaluate it from a Scriptural standpoint. Roy: John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The fact that He was given the HS without measure shows of necessity that all others have the HS by measure. The apostles had a measure that no one else had, i.e., the baptismal measure of the HS. Bobby: Roy, you said, WHAT??? The apostles had a measure that no one else had, i.e., the baptismal measure of the HS. Im sure youll bring it out before were done, but you either you know something about the Bible that I dont know, OR you are reading things into Scriptures that the Bible has NOT said. **IF** its the former, Ill definitely hear you out, and Scripturally evaluate it. But, **IF** it turns out to be the latter, my best advise to you would be to learn to only speak where the Bible speaks, and to learn to remain silent where the Bible is silent. Roy: John the Baptizer said Jesus would baptize with the HS (Mt.3:11), but then later we read where Jesus Himself is qualifying this promise only to the apostles: And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high (Lk.24:49); Bobby: First off, who was John the Baptist addressing???? Was it only the Apostles??? I dont think so. However, **IF** you have Scriptural evidence that supports such a position, please, by all means, present it at your earliest convenience. But, even **IF** I believed John only addressed the Apostles, (which I dont, at this point), that begs to consider why God didnt tell John the Baptist to qualify the message that he was to deliver to only the Apostles. Roy: And, being assembled together with them [apostles], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:4-5). Approximately 7 days later, on the day of Pentecost: Bobby: While it is a Biblical, verifiable, fact that the Holy Ghost coming upon someone ... someone being filled with the Holy Ghost ... being baptized with the Holy Ghost ... OR someone is said to have received the Holy Ghost ... the bottom line is, this: An obedient believers life being impacted by the Holy Ghost is BOTH a promise AND a gift, and NOT something that was promised or gifted ONLY to a very limited group of people, OR for a particular time frame during the New Testament Church Age. And, Ill back up my assertion with the Word of God. Further on down in Acts Chapter One, you will find that the number of people who obeyed Jesus command, who actually tarried together in Jerusalem, was about 120 (including, Mary, the mother of Jesus, as well as some other women). At any rate, since youve already used Jesus words in Acts 1:4-5 about the promise of the Father being that of SOMEBODY being baptized with the Holy Ghost, I wont bother to re-list those two verses ... Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power*, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. *power .. Dunamis Strongs # 1411 ... supernatural POWER was promised to the recipients of the Holy Ghost ... to be witnesses unto Jesus throughout the world (the, then, known world, AND all of the other countries of the entire earth, known today). Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: While the 12 (which included the newly elected replacement for Judas) must have been right there together, in one wad, but for any serious Bible student to say (or even imply) that NOBDY else was there with them, at the time ... and/or that nobody else, who was there, was allowed to receive what the 12 had just received ... is just IMPROPER handling of Gods Word. First off, God very plainly had it put into the Biblical record that about 120 people were there. And, Ive NEVER known of anyone who has ever been able to get 108, or so, of them folks, outta there (before the Holy Ghost experience took place) ... from a Scriptural stand point. Granted, Ive had a bunch ofem go through all sorts of shell games and mental gymnastics, trying to get there. But, NOBODY has ever gotem outta there, with coherent Bible that did NOT contradict what the Bible does say. Secondly, what God inspired Peter to say to these people that day is that what they were witnessing was a fulfillment of what God had (centuries prior) prophesied through Joel. And, Peter went on to quote from Joel Chapter 2. Third, according to Joels prophecy, that God was going to pour out His Spirit, Peter told these inquiring minds, who gathered there, that day, that God had just poured out His Spirit ... to more than 12 people on the Day of Pentecost ... as Peter clearly put forth in the conclusion of His sermon that day .... PETERS CONCLUSION (further on down in Acts Chapter 2): Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Peter very clearly told these people that not only what they had just witnessed there that day, was the fulfillment of Joels prophecy, but Peter also concluded by specifically telling them the following about the promise ... the gift ... of the Holy Ghost (in verse 39): For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And, Roy, this is NOT my opinion. This is what the Bible says. And, it does NOT conform to a position that ONLY 12 Apostles received the HolyGhost, that day, OR that the Holy Ghost experience is NOT the same foranyone other than the 12 Apostles, there that day. Roy: Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Please notice some things from this passage: 1) all who were filled with the Holy Ghost began to speak, and the text specifies that only men were speaking: they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak... & Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them (Acts 2:13-14). The women mentioned as being in the group of 120 are not mentioned as having received the baptism of the Holy Ghost nor were they speaking! Bobby: Roy, your statement, The women mentioned as being in the group of 120 are not mentioned as having received the baptism of the Holy Ghost nor were they speaking! is NOT Biblical. It is merely your opinion ... AND a bad one at that **IF** the Bible is considered to be accurate. Again, unless you know something I dont, you do NOT have any BIBLE whatsoever to support what you just said. And, you just saying it more, aint gonna make it become Truth, either. Roy: 2) Tongues in this text (as in all the New Testament) is another language known and spoken by someone. Tongues in verse 4 is the same as language in verse 6. Verses 9-11 lists some 17 languages present and they all heard and understood what the apostles were saying in their own language, hence, undeniable and irrefutable evidence that this Holy Ghost-given gift of speaking in tongues was the ability, without schooling, to speak other known languages. Bobby: Now, I will agree with part of what you just said, here, Roy. There were (many different) languages being spoken and understood that day, by those who had gathered at Jerusalem for the feast, but who had evidently heard about something spectacular going on, and had gathered around to see what was going on ... and were actually able to understand, what was being spoken by someone. But, as par for the course, among those who utilize the strategy of playing shell games with words and points to try and prove and/or set up a particular point ... the gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts Chapter 2 and the NINE gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 ARE NOT THE ENTIRETY of what all is being dealt with on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts Chapter 2, that day. Jesus said this in John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. What do you believe the Bible says (or not says) about the sound that is heard when EVERYONE is born of the Spirit? Paul said in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 that there are tongues (whether languages unknown to the believer {speaker} OR NOT) which can be understood by someone else, and used to edify an entire congregation by he that prophesieth. Whereas, there are, also, tongues which NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ... not even the believer {speaker} ... which edifies ONLY the individual believer speaking. Whats your understanding about these tongues, Ron? 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Roy: Then, there was the measure of the HS which was given ONLY through the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts.8:17-18; 19:1-6). Bobby: As already presented, there are NINE gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12. And, just like removing the other 108, or so, people on the Day of Pentecost ... Ive never seen anyone Scripturally remove any of these NINE gifts which God placed in His Church. 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. Therefore, I really need you to provide me with book, chapter and verse where you believe the Bible says that the laying on of hands is something ONLY the Apostles and/or First Century Christians were gifted with. Roy: Then, theres the indwelling measure of the HS which every person receives upon being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) which is the earnest or our down payment on eternal life, (Eph.1:13-14). Bobby: While I whole heartedly believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance, I do NOT subscribe to your beliefs where you say, theres the indwelling measure of the HS which every person receives upon being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) In fact, Acts Chapter 10 REFUTES your opinion, expressed here. Acts Chapter 10 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Notice that Cornelius household and friends received the Holy Ghost as well as we, Peter said ... AND BEFORE ANYONE PUT A HAND ON THEM ... OR THEY GOT WATER BAPTIZED, FOR THAT MATTER. Roy: The Bible tasks us with rightly dividing the word of God (2 Tim.2:15). Bobby: And, that is a task I take EXCEEDINGLY seriously, Roy, which is why I dont take your word OR anyone elses over what the Bible says. Roy: Stephen & Philip (Acts 6) were full (the indwelling measure) ofthe HS because they had been baptized for the remission of sins, but they didnt have power to perform miracles until after the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Bobby: You may have convinced others that there is actually an indwelling measure of the Holy Spirit that someone automatically receives the moment they get water baptized, which is NOT like what was experienced on the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2. But, as Ive already shown, Acts Chapter 10 (above) REFUTES your position. And, thats really all that needs to be said. Roy: Acts 19:1-6 SPECIFICALLY shows that the speaking in tongues & prophesying occurred ONLY after Paul baptized them and after he laid his hands on them. Bobby: Well, since EVERYONE OF THEM received the Holy Ghost, and you have no Bible to support your position, can you give me ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY, SANE, LOGICAL, reason why the Apostle Paul ... who was bringing the Gospel to THEM (NOT vice versa) ... would have needed to hear these guys speak in tongues AFTER he re-baptized them in water, and laid his hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues??? Just one?? Roy: This FACT is further corroborated in Acts 8: Philip (who had received the laying on of hands) preached Christ in a Samaritan city and baptized both men and women as well as Simon the sorcerer. Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Ghost was given... Please read this passage carefully and note that these people were baptized and full (the indwelling measure) of HS like Stephen in chapter 6, but the HS had not yet FALLEN upon them, it took the apostles Peter & John coming from Jerusalem to lay hands on them, an act that Philip, who already had the laying on of hands, could not do, hence, the duration of these gifts being limited to that generation. Bobby: Well, those shells got shuffled around so much there, I dont hardly know where to start. Lets see ... First, you say, Please read this passage carefully and note that these people were baptized and full (the indwelling measure) of HS like Stephen in chapter 6, But, the fact of the matter is, these people had been water baptized in the precious name or Jesus, but had just not received the Holy Ghost yet .... infilling measure OR OTHER ... as **IF** theres different blends. I mean, you make it sound like First Century Christians pulled up to a pump (so to speak), which had BOTH regular and premium. And, to get the premium, there had to be a living Apostle present to lay hands on them (a position that Acts Chapter 10 REFUTES). But, today, theres ONLY regular cause premium hasnt been available since the last, First Century, Apostle died. And, I just aint buying what youre selling ... with no apology on my part, either. Roy: This is what your Bible says, and your Bible also says that you are not to add to nor take from what Gods Holy Word says! Bobby: Oh, trust me. I take the adding to and taking from EXCEEDINGLY seriously. **IF** the Bible said one must roll a hickory nut with their nose down the middle of a busy road twice a day for a distance of one mile in order to enter Gods Kingdom, youd see ole Bobby out there in the middle of Calvary Road, twice a day, rolling a hickory nut with my nose.
Posted on: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 21:34:42 +0000