My refute on once saved always saved So here we go, here are some reasons why I am totally against the O.S.A.S... I know that O.S.A.S. teaches that once you are saved there is nothing you can do to put yourself in hell, sin all you want and go to heaven, a.k.a. license to sin, and if this doctrine is false it will send a whole lot of people to hell. another reason why I do not like this doctrine is because god kept showing me scripture that totally contradicted it and then I would get a totally sick felling every time I herd it preached, I know that that it was the HOLY SPIRIT that was throwing red flags all over the place and prompted me to search for the truth. I think that the hardest for me about all of this is that I am going against a popular doctrine that the majority believe in, and that sets me up for losing friends, people coming against me, speaking against me and persecuting me for what I know to be the truth that god has given me..... But if I must stand out from the crowd and be separate from them, just to truly follow JESUS and stay on that strait and very narrow path... Then so be it.... Just me and Jesus.... So now I am going to present some facts that I believe will blow the O.S.A.S. doctrine out of the water. First lets start with Gods word. John 15:5-6New American Standard Bible (NASB) 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. I think that verse 6 is very clear that it is talking about believers. lets go on..... Revelation 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB) Message to Ephesus 2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks [a]among the seven golden lamp stands, says this: 2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and [b]perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have [c]perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lamp stand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’ Ok so in this verse Jesus is clearly talking to the church believer some have fallen away s and in verse 5 it clearly states that he will remove there lamp stand unless they repent... 1 Timothy 4:1-2New American Standard Bible (NASB) Apostasy 4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, OK so this scripture is clearly talking about believers, why else would it say some have fallen away from the faith? James 5:19-20New American Standard Bible (NASB) 19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. Why would it say if any of you strays from the faith and turns him back? you cant stray away from something you were never in, so in fact it is talking about a believer. 2 Peter 2:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB) 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [a]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” Talking about believers for sure..... 2 John 1:8-11New American Standard Bible (NASB) 8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 [a]Anyone who [b]goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. Revelation 2:10New American Standard Bible (NASB) 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. [a]Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life Now why would it say be faithful until death, and i will give you the crown of life. if we are once saved always saved then why do we need to be faithful until death? Revelation 3:1-5New American Standard Bible (NASB) Message to Sardis 3 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, [a]but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 So remember [b]what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4 But you have a few [c]people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels Jesus is talking to the church and he tells them to repent and if they do not wake up he will come like a thief in the night, but the one that overcomes will not be erased out of the book of life. this clearly states that if they do not repent they will suffer his wrath and not be in the book of life. sounds like conditional salvation to me. Revelation 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB) 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will [a]spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, Talking to the church and telling them if they stay luke warm he will spit them out of his mouth. Hebrews 10:26-31New American Standard Bible (NASB) Christ or Judgment 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. this passage clearly states for if we go on sinning WILLFULLY after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the furry of a fire witch will consume the adversaries...... so we are talking about willful sinning..... 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?............BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED that rite there is defiantly talking about a SAVED person..... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.....So this scripture is definitely saying that our salvation is conditional. If you are not convinced that what i am saying is correct, then please break down every scripture i have given you and tell me scripture by scripture and word for word why you do not think those scriptures are not talking about conditional salvation...... I have more to back my evidence... this whole once saved always saved doctrine was started by John Calvin witch ironically I happen to be named after, Calvinism was started only five hundred years ago.... and another fact is no one in the early church preached the O.S.A.S. doctrine. in fact they preached the opposite, and I have proof on this.... and I will present this truth below........ So with all of this.... I rather stick with what has been preached by my early church brothers for fifteen hundred years. and I do not think anyone should hold John Calvin over the early church brothers that knew for a fact what Jesus, Paul and the other greats were preaching. I am going to give you something by a man named Steve Witzki, and then I will post what our early church brothers had to say, and that will be out of the book, Early Christian Dictionary The Doctrine and Practice of the Early Christians. I truly pray that you be blessed by this. The Inadequate Historical Precedent for “Once Saved, Always Saved” Steve Witzki John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine” [Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity. While the first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written around A. D. 429, Augustine believed it was possible to experience the justifying grace of God and yet not persevere to the end. Augustine did believe God’s elect would certainly persevere to the end, but he denied that a person could know they were in the elect and he also warned it was possible to be justified but not among the elect. Not until Calvin was unconditional election, permanent regeneration, and certitude of final perseverance all connected. James Akin, a Catholic theologian, said in a debate with Calvinist theologian James White that no one before Calvin taught that predestination to grace automatically entails predestination to glory. You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it. This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, How could a doctrine this important--if true--remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quearters of all of Church history? Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by Gods grace. So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?” Akin’s remarks are accurate and problematic for Calvinist scholars. Furthermore, the Calvinist does not fare any better when one looks even more deeply into what the early Christians believed about this issue. In 1998, Hendrickson Publishers printed A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of “Salvation,” we find the question, “Can those who are saved ever be lost?” After several Scriptural passages are quoted [2 Chron 15:2; Ezek 33:12; Matt 10:22; Luke 9:62; 2 Tim 2:12; Heb 10:26; 2 Pet 2:20-21], five pages of quotes are given from the writings of early Christian leaders. These quotes give evidence that the early church did not believe in “once saved, always saved.” They taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God in hell [pp. 586-591]. David Bercot, editor of this dictionary, also wrote a provocative book called, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? It takes today’s Evangelical Church, both its lifestyle and teaching, and looks at it in the light of early Christian teaching. It is an interesting book that comes from someone who has read through the entire works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers more than once. He writes, Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For example, Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him…. Therefore we should not be puffed up…. But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom” (Heb. 6:4-6) [p. 65]. What the Christian Church historically believed about the security of the believer is not the ultimate test for determining our stance on this issue today, but the lack of historical precedent should serve as a warning. Before John Calvin, the teaching of unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the universal church through the centuries. Therefore, while the Scriptures are the ultimate test for truth on this issue, “once saved, always saved” teachers need to acknowledge that their doctrine is historically an anomaly. Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards) is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century. Now here is what our brothers from the early church preached about salvation, this is strait out of Early Christian Dictionary The Doctrine and Practice of the Early Christians. VI. Is it possible to loose your salvation? For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22 Take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, The covenant is both theirs and ours. But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4 We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becomes the sons of God that the Black One may find no means of entrance. Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4 Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when you reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, Many are called, but few are chosen. Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.4 Watch for your lifes sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. Didache (A.D. 80-140) ch. 16 Look you, brethren, lest His benefits, which are many, turn unto judgment to all of us, if we walk not worthily of Him, and do those things which are good and well-pleasing in His sight with concord. It is right therefore that we should not be deserters from His will. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.21 But they that endured patiently in confidence inherited glory and honor; they were exalted, and had their names recorded by God in their memorial for ever and ever. Amen. To such examples as these therefore, brethren, we also ought to cleave. For it is written; Cleave unto the saints, for they that cleave unto them shall be sanctified. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch. 46 And we ought not rather to fear men but God. For this cause, if you do these things, the Lord said, Though you be gathered together with Me in My bosom, and do not My commandments, I will cast you away and will say unto you, Depart from Me, I know you not whence you are, you workers of iniquity. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.4 The promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal. What then can we do to obtain them, but walk in holiness and righteousness, and consider these worldly things as alien to us, and not desire them? For when we desire to obtain these things we fall away from the righteous path. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.5 And the scripture also said in Ezekiel, Though Noah and Job and Daniel should rise up, they shall not deliver their children in the captivity. But if even such righteous men as these cannot by their righteous deeds deliver their children, with what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works? Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch. 6 We ought to know that he which contends in the corruptible contest, if he be found dealing corruptly with it, is first flogged, and then removed and driven out of the race-course. What think you? What shall be done to him that has dealt corruptly with the contest of incorruption? For as concerning them that have not kept the seal, He said, Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.7 Wherefore, my brethren, let us not be double-minded but endure patiently in hope, that we may also obtain our reward. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch. 11 Let us therefore practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Though they may endure affliction for a short time in the world, they will gather the immortal fruit of the resurrection. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.19 For since, by the introduction into an appropriation us of the Holy Spirit, we are all the temple of God, modesty is the sacristan and priestess of that temple, who is to suffer nothing unclean or profane to be introduced (into it), for fear that the God who inhabits it should be offended, and quite forsake the polluted abode. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg. 18 Fear is the foundation of salvation; presumption is an impediment to fear. More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot; for apprehending will lead us to fear, fearing to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg. 19 IV. The role of obedience in salvation being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hebrews 5:9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thessalonians 1:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8 Noah preached repentance, and those who obeyed were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; but they, repenting of their sins, made atonement to God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.7 The fear of (God) is good and great and saves all them that walk therein in a pure mind with holiness. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.21 Let us therefore cleave unto those to whom grace is given from God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being lowly-minded and temperate, holding ourselves aloof from all backbiting and evil speaking, being justified by works and not by words. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.30 Blessed were we, dearly beloved, if we should be doing the commandments of God in concord of love, to the end that our sins may through love be forgiven us. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.50 Let us therefore be obedient unto His most holy and glorious Name, thereby escaping the threatenings which were spoken of old by the mouth of Wisdom against them which disobey, that we may dwell safely, trusting in the most holy Name of His majesty. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.57 For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.6 So then, my brethren, let us contend, knowing that the contest is nigh at hand, and that, while many resort to the corruptible contests, yet not all are crowned, but only they that have toiled hard and contended bravely. And if we cannot all be crowned, let us at least come near to the crown. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.7 Wherefore, brethren, if we shall have done the will of the Father and kept the flesh pure and guarded the commandments of the Lord, we shall receive life eternal. For the Lord said in the Gospel, If you kept not that which is little, who shall give unto you that which is great? For I say unto you that he which is faithful in the least, is faithful also in much. So then He means this, Keep the flesh pure and the seal unstained, to the end that we may receive life. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.8 Wherefore, my brethren, let us not be double-minded but endure patiently in hope, that we may also obtain our reward. For faithful is He that promised to pay to each man the recompense of his works. If therefore we shall have wrought righteousness in the sight of God, we shall enter into His kingdom and shall receive the promises which ear has not heard nor eye seen, neither has it entered into the heart of man. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.11 But if we do not the will of the Lord, we shall be of the scripture that said, My house was made a den of robbers. So therefore let us choose rather to be of the Church of life, that we may be saved. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.14 Now I do not think that I have given any mean counsel respecting continence, and whosoever performs it shall not repent thereof, but shall save both himself and me his counselor. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch.15 I read to you an exhortation to the end that you may give heed to the things which are written, so that you may save both yourselves and him that reads in the midst of you. For I ask of you as a reward that you repent with your whole heart, and give salvation and life to yourselves. Second Clement (A.D. 100) ch. 19 Now He that raised Him from the dead will raise us also; if we do His will and walk in His commandments and love the things which He loved, abstaining from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil or railing for railing or blow for blow or cursing for cursing; Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) ch.2 For I know that, if I shall add no more to my sins, I shall be saved. You shall be saved, he said, you and all, as many as shall do these things. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.22 Sir, these commandments are great and beautiful and glorious, and are able to gladden the heart of the man who is able to observe them. But I know not whether these commandments can be kept by a man, for they are very hard. He answered and said unto me; If you set it before yourself that they can be kept, you will easily keep them, and they will not be hard; but if it once enter into your heart that they cannot be kept by a man, you will not keep them. But now I say unto you; if you keep them not. but neglect them you shall not have salvation, neither your children nor your household, since you have already pronounced judgment against yourself that these commandments cannot be kept by a man. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.29 Go, and tell all men to repent, and they shall live unto God; for the Lord in His compassion sent me to give repentance to all, though some of them, because of their deeds do not deserve to be saved. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.42 And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for mans sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received - of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.165 Nor did He stand in need of our service when He ordered us to follow Him; but He thus bestowed salvation upon ourselves. For to follow the Savior is to be a partaker of salvation, and to follow light is to receive light. But those who are in light do not themselves illumine the light, but are illumined and revealed by it: they do certainly contribute nothing to it, but, receiving the benefit, they are illumined by the light. Thus, also, service [rendered] to God does indeed profit God nothing, nor has God need of human obedience; but He grants to those who follow and serve Him life and in-corruption and eternal glory, bestowing benefit upon those who serve [Him], because they do serve Him, and on His followers, because they do follow Him; but does not receive any benefit from them: for He is rich, perfect, and in need of nothing. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 478 For as man, disobeying, drew death upon himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting. For God has given us a law and holy commandments; and every one who keeps these can be saved, and, obtaining the resurrection, can inherit incorruption. Theophilus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.105 Forgiveness of past sins, then, God gives; but of future, each one gives to himself. And this is to repent, to condemn the past deeds, and beg oblivion of them from the Father, who only of all is able to undo what is done, by mercy proceeding from Him, and to blot out former sins by the dew of the Spirit. For by the state in which I find you will I judge, Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.602 Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. I hope that this info was useful to you and I hope that it will help you to understand more on why I believe what I do....
Posted on: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 05:47:02 +0000
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