So, in regards to my previous post, I must confess, I have much more insight on the topic then I led on, I was feeling this out seeing where you all stand and you have very good points, however, I believe the interpretation is slightly off... Yes, it is dependent on Gods mercy, we cannot come unless He reveals/calls us to Himself. This is truth. Yes, it is not dependent on man. And yes, God can get what He wants. However, it is the process in how you got to your conclusion that I find a slight problem in. I am seeing a pattern of almost a proof texting nature, but I do not think that is your intent... I will be frank, this topic is deeper than what I can post on Facebook, however, it also spans across other presuppositions of God that I believe need to be discussed. For example, God can get what He wants, yes, He is God, but for some reason we believe that God wants who He wants and thats it... Rather, what if God wants those who want Him.... This changes the argument against a lot.... For if Gods desire is not for a specific person, but for a willing heart, then Calvinism has some tweaking to do. Also, the idea of free will. I believe it is more than just undeniable grace. Think about this for a second, God created man and Angels, angels live in the heavens, yet we see in Ezekiel 28 that lucifer/Satan/the devil was a guardian cherub, and a third, 1/3 of the angels descended from heaven and left and became demons due to their choice to separate themselves from God. In light of this, is it so far fetched to say that God wants us to choose? Look at the garden, in the beginning God had a choice, he could have made it so we had no choice but to follow Him, but He didnt, God knows that a relationship is two sided, both parties have to want to be in the relationship... God wants us to choose Him. And for those of you about to say, but it isnt on mans desire or effort.... This is true, what did paul state in Romans 3? No one is righteous, no one is good .... NO ONE SEEKS GOD!!! This is fundamental, we cannot seek God unless, as Luke and Matthew state, no one knows the Father. But the Son, and no one knows the Son except the Father and TO WHOM the SON CHOOSES to REVEAL HIM TO... Therefore, it is on Gods mercy that the son reveals himself TO US so that we may have the CHOICE to follow and serve Him and believe in Him. Now that these points are out of the way we can delve deeper into what Paul is trying to have us glean from His passage in Romans 9(btw, thank you to the guy who took the time to type that passage out, it is the basis for the majority of my argument). First, we need to understand that this argument I am posing is based as much as it is biblically and theologically as much as it is based philosophically. For how can one begin to fathom God if Gd himself has not made it possible to understand? I truly believe that when truth, I mean real truth becomes evident, there is no passage of scripture that contradicts it, nor philosophical argument that destroys it, aka, it is aligned with scripture and it makes sense. Now, the first problem I have starts with Gods choosing. I challenge you to look at this as gods call. This passage seems to give us only two paths, rather it gives us three. Those who are not called, those who are called, yet reject that call, and those who are called and accept that call. So, lets start with the damned first. Those who are not called, do not and cannot seek God, therefore salvation is not possible for them. Now before you crucify me for this take a step back and think, and keep reading.... Romans 1:20, all men are without excuse, why? Because god has revealed himself through what has been created, it is not his fault that man does not seek him, that is because of our fall.... Also, these people who are damned are prepared in advance for their destruction... Now, Im going to touch a little on the called and come back to the damned, so bear with me. Those who are called can now seek God because Jesus has revealed himself and the father and the spirit to them. However, they have the free will to choose this call or reject it... Also, these people are all prepared in advance for glory, even if they end up rejecting. Now I promised Id come back, use this analogy... The one who is prepared in advance for destruction is given all the proper equipment to survive in a frozen wasteland, an ice pick, winter burka, ice shoes, etc... The ones prepared in advance for glory are given everything to survive at the beach, sunscreen, surfboard, sunglasses, board shorts, etc... Now, what if one who is prepared in advance for glory chooses to reject gods call, he is sent to hell, which for this analogies purposes is a frozen wasteland (opposite of the fiery torment we see in the bible). Who is worse off, the one who is damned but prepared in advance for his destruction, or the one who rejected the call and was prepared in advance for glory, obviously it is the latter. I say this to bring up the point. The damned ones are very, very, very few. The only two mentioned in the entire Bible are Pharoah and Esau.... Out of all of those years only two were mentioned, how few then are there now? Also, they are essential to the puzzle which is election. For those who have to choose, God knows their hearts. He knows, as we see in 2 Corinthians 12, that we turn to God in our weakness, so God uses those prepared for destruction to force those objects of his glory into weakness so they will turn to him, hence the verse in Romans 9, what if God choosing to make His glory known to the objects of His mercy, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath prepared in advance for destruction. The pieces fit like a glove, and not just in this passage but the rest of the Bible. I know this is a very short description of what I see god doing here through paul, it may seem big, but it is very short for an argument of this magnitude. Please take the time to read it and comment on it... Again, there are many other presuppositions that you may be wrestling with that I have not addressed, as to make this argument actually bearable to read, I will comment below with more if you desire. God bless you all!
Posted on: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:49:59 +0000
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